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brianK73
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Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:51 am

I have not seen this news item elsewhere in the forum.
I would have thought P-8 and A400M are shoo-in for these roles.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Japan-Update/Jap ... e-aircraft
Japan in talks with New Zealand for defense aircraft
TOKYO -- Japan is in negotiations with New Zealand to export the Self-Defense Forces' patrol and transport aircraft, in hopes of beating out U.S. and European competition to score its first large-scale arms contract.

The deal will also involve the maintenance of the planes, and is potentially worth billions of dollars. Tokyo in September provided unclassified information on the P-1 maritime patrol plane and C-2 transporter, both developed by Kawasaki Heavy Industries, in response to Wellington's requests.

Representatives from Japan's defense ministry and Kawasaki Heavy are in New Zealand for negotiations. Japan could come up with a proposal in the first half of 2017 concerning the price, production process and maintenance of the planes. It will also consider jointly producing certain parts with New Zealand.....
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:04 pm

interesting. I thought Japan didn't export military crafts?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
interesting. I thought Japan didn't export military crafts?


In the past.
They have decided to now drink from that watering hole like everybody else.
( couple of years in the future they will also go for
participating in armed conflict like Germany already does.)


"Building submarines for Australia" is another gust of change.
.. but if that goes the same way the last generation of Aida cruise ships went....
http://www.seatrade-cruise.com/news/new ... ships.html
this too might be dropped in Germany's lap somewhen in the future. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:25 pm

Interesting. Germany has been building a lot of military hardware in the past, so indeed no problem there. And I believe they have send their military to UN missions in the past. A few years back, they have sold tanks to Indonesia,which was blocked by the Dutch parlement due to humanitarian reasons.

Does Japan send its military to UN missions, other then some supporting tasks?
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Kiwirob
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:35 pm

brianK73 wrote:
I have not seen this news item elsewhere in the forum.
I would have thought P-8 and A400M are shoo-in for these roles.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Japan-Update/Jap ... e-aircraft
Japan in talks with New Zealand for defense aircraft
TOKYO -- Japan is in negotiations with New Zealand to export the Self-Defense Forces' patrol and transport aircraft, in hopes of beating out U.S. and European competition to score its first large-scale arms contract.

The deal will also involve the maintenance of the planes, and is potentially worth billions of dollars. Tokyo in September provided unclassified information on the P-1 maritime patrol plane and C-2 transporter, both developed by Kawasaki Heavy Industries, in response to Wellington's requests.

Representatives from Japan's defense ministry and Kawasaki Heavy are in New Zealand for negotiations. Japan could come up with a proposal in the first half of 2017 concerning the price, production process and maintenance of the planes. It will also consider jointly producing certain parts with New Zealand.....


The problem with P8 is the time frame, Boeing will have finished building all the currently ordered P8's before the NZ govt is ready for them.

A400 might be too much aircraft for NZ, whereas C2 is bigger than a Herc but smaller and apparently cheaper to operate than A400.

With both aircraft coming from the same vendor and the Japanese keen to start selling military hardware there will probably be some pretty good incentives heading NZ's way if they order the pair.
 
WIederling
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting.


Germany is afaik the third largest exporter of mil hardware. OK, that is "toploaded" via submarine (expensive) sales.

Formerly German Armed Services activity abroad was centered around MASH like setups. This was beneficial to all.
"Hot" activity ( like in Afghanistan) abroad is imho wrong. it is a defence force. ( on paper just like Japan.)

Too many ( and still rising ) idiotic clowns with guns around.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:30 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting.


Germany is afaik the third largest exporter of mil hardware. OK, that is "toploaded" via submarine (expensive) sales.

Formerly German Armed Services activity abroad was centered around MASH like setups. This was beneficial to all.
"Hot" activity ( like in Afghanistan) abroad is imho wrong. it is a defence force. ( on paper just like Japan.)

Too many ( and still rising ) idiotic clowns with guns around.


Apparently not. It changed in 1994, new interpretation of the word defense by the constitutional court. The Bundeswehr is actively supporting operation abroad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr#Mission
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bikerthai
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:56 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The problem with P8 is the time frame, Boeing will have finished building all the currently ordered P8's before the NZ govt is ready for them.


That is really a shame if that is the only excuse. If NZ can't get the P-8A they loose all the benefits of functionality/commonality with the US and RAAF.

Excuses asides, my bet is NZ will work something out and get their hands on some P-8's. The production line is expected to last for about another 5 years if NZ they can get their finance (or creative financing) in order.

bt
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LAXPAX
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:36 am

I can't comment on the merits of the Kawasaki P-1 as a competitor to the Boeing P-8; but I can say that the P-1 could finally be a viable successor to the P-3 Hurricane Hunter used by NOAA.

NOAA has kept the P-3 as its main platform not only because it's such an amazing aircraft, but because there hasn't been anything else on the market that could be a direct replacement. NOAA's requirements are four engines, an airframe that is suitable for multiple radar emplacements (including below the fuselage), and dropsonde capability. The C-130's low stance rules out the belly radar, and nothing else in this size category has four engines anymore. (Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong about any of this.)

To that end, the Kawasaki P-1 seems like the perfect aircraft for the job. Too bad NOAA/Department of Commerce probably do not have $140 million in loose change to buy one. :P
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bikerthai
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:20 pm

LAXPAX wrote:
but I can say that the P-1 could finally be a viable successor to the P-3 Hurricane Hunter used by NOAA.


But do they need to replace the hurricane hunting planes? With all these Navy P-3's being surplussed, there would be plenty of spare parts to keep these research planes flying for some time. Heck, with the quantities of P-1 planned to be built, you'll have an easier time finding P-3 parts.

bt
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VSMUT
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:41 pm

LAXPAX wrote:
The C-130's low stance rules out the belly radar, and nothing else in this size category has four engines anymore. (Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong about any of this.)


I am pretty sure they could find a solution to that. One solution could be to fit two radars ahead of and slightly below the wheel fairings in the positions where weapons have been placed here:

Image

Or sling it under the nose-cone like this (But on a C-130 obviously):

Image

Or make it retractable, but that might be even more expensive.
 
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LAXPAX
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:24 pm

bikerthai wrote:
LAXPAX wrote:
but I can say that the P-1 could finally be a viable successor to the P-3 Hurricane Hunter used by NOAA.


But do they need to replace the hurricane hunting planes? With all these Navy P-3's being surplussed, there would be plenty of spare parts to keep these research planes flying for some time. Heck, with the quantities of P-1 planned to be built, you'll have an easier time finding P-3 parts.

bt


I don't think they are looking to replace in the short term, and you are right that spares should not be a problem. But every P-3 airframe has a LOT of cycles, and NOAA flies some of the most mechanically stressful missions possible -- I'm sure at some point they will prefer something either new-build or at least more lightly used.

VSMUT wrote:
I am pretty sure they could find a solution to that. One solution could be to fit two radars ahead of and slightly below the wheel fairings in the positions where weapons have been placed here


VSMUT wrote:
Or sling it under the nose-cone like this (But on a C-130 obviously)


A C-130 solution would probably be ideal -- not only because of the sheer ubiquity of the type, but because the USAF Reserve 53d Weather Reconnaissance Squadron already flies the WC-130J in the same harsh conditions as NOAA's P-3, so it certainly fits the mission.
"Remember, no matter where you go... there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:18 am

I've read on another forum that the P1 and C2 have a common type rating, I can't find anything official to prove or disprove this, does anyone know. If this is correct that's another tick in Kawasaki box.
 
Ozair
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:51 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I've read on another forum that the P1 and C2 have a common type rating, I can't find anything official to prove or disprove this, does anyone know. If this is correct that's another tick in Kawasaki box.

Not a big factor IMO. The skill set between maritime patrol and transport are different enough that the pilots won't role between both without conducting an operational conversion. Most of the time spent on OPCONs is not learning to fly the jet, its learning to fly the jet operationally.
 
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:12 am

bikerthai wrote:

That is really a shame if that is the only excuse. If NZ can't get the P-8A they loose all the benefits of functionality/commonality with the US and RAAF.

Excuses asides, my bet is NZ will work something out and get their hands on some P-8's. The production line is expected to last for about another 5 years if NZ they can get their finance (or creative financing) in order.

bt


With the definite possibility of future orders coming down the pipeline the line will probably last longer than currently projected.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:36 am

LMP737 wrote:
With the definite possibility of future orders coming down the pipeline the line will probably last longer than currently projected.


Unless the US steps in and places those orders, I don't see that happening. Only two western-aligned countries recently operated significant fleets of ASW planes, the US and Japan, and Japan went for their own jet. The rest will only place a smattering of orders here and there.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:11 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The problem with P8 is the time frame, Boeing will have finished building all the currently ordered P8's before the NZ govt is ready for them.


That can't be too much of a problem, it is based on the 737, I am sure that they could do a P8 based on a 737MAX, almost all the cost should be absorbed into the P8 program anyway.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:38 pm

LMP737 wrote:
With the definite possibility of future orders coming down the pipeline the line will probably last longer than currently projected.


The P-8A line is dictated by the willingness for BCA to maintain the 737NG configuration. Once the MAX is in full swing, they will shut down the NG line, including the P-8A variant. That's going to happen in about 5 years, more P-8A orders not withstanding.

Dutchy wrote:
That can't be too much of a problem, it is based on the 737, I am sure that they could do a P8 based on a 737MAX, almost all the cost should be absorbed into the P8 program anyway.


Who's going to put out the non-recurring money for all the new Engineering changes? Sure the design concept is done, but new Engineering would be needed because the basic dash number to which the major structural assemblies are created from has changed. The Navy have their design and is not going to put out new money for a MAX version of the P-8.

If one is to be forward thinking, then the option with the least up-front cost would be to pre-build a few more air frames at the end of the NG line. You can store the frames a while before the system can be installed. At a rate of one a month you'll probably can extend the line for 6-12 months max before the cost be too prohibited.

So if the NG line shut, NZ can order their 3 frames. Store it and have Boeing send them 3 Mission System Kits to be installed latter (in NZ if necessary if the P-8A line closes) once all the money is approved. You will need to pay for those 3 frames up front though.

Going forward, I heard that the MAX variant will be used for the JSTAR configuration. If some how you can adapt the JSTAR configuration for MMA duties, then you may have a chance. Note that the JSTAR 737 will not have a bomb bay, may not have wing hard point and sonobouy launchers. Also, the JSTAR configuration will not be in-line production, so the cost will go up significantly.
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LightningZ71
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:56 am

Oddly enough, I was under the impression that there was no separate MAX line. I thought that they were just going to interleave production on the same line.
 
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:07 am

US Govt approves sale of 4 P-8s to NZ

New Zealand – P-8A Aircraft and Associated Suppor
http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/ne ... ed-support

=
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ZKNCI
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:20 am

LAXintl wrote:
US Govt approves sale of 4 P-8s to NZ

New Zealand – P-8A Aircraft and Associated Suppor
http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/ne ... ed-support

=


Local media are picking up on that, but saying it's not firm. Wouldn't be surprised if it goes ahead, given the RAAF has P-8s. But with only four, a smaller type would be useful for the shorter flights, something to handle training and short-range, low-alt SAR and coastguard flights. Something with a rear ramp like the C295 or C-27J could work and would make a good Andover replacement, freeing up the Hercs (and their replacement) a bit too.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:41 pm

So now P-8's will apprently be in the fleet of these countries sooner or later:

USA
India
UK
Norway
Australia
New Zealand


Correct ?
 
LMP737
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Mon May 01, 2017 2:11 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I've read on another forum that the P1 and C2 have a common type rating, I can't find anything official to prove or disprove this, does anyone know. If this is correct that's another tick in Kawasaki box.


Have to admit I'm a bit of fan of the P-1. Neat looking airplane, like a cross between a P-3 and DC-8.
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bikerthai
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Mon May 01, 2017 2:19 pm

Mortyman wrote:
So now P-8's will apprently be in the fleet of these countries sooner or later:

USA
India
UK
Norway
Australia
New Zealand


A decision for Korea is expected later this year (I believe). With all the sable rattling on the peninsular, I will not be surprised that they will pony up the money.


bt
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue May 02, 2017 1:16 am

LAXintl wrote:
US Govt approves sale of 4 P-8s to NZ

New Zealand – P-8A Aircraft and Associated Suppor
http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/ne ... ed-support

=

While the P-8 is more capable than the P-3 replacing 6 frames with 4 is not going to work.
New Zealand has the largest SAR area to cover in the world and one of the largest EEZ.
5x P-8 would be enough. Remember at any one time you likely will have 1 frame out for maintenance, 1 deployed overseas (exercises or patrol), that leaves only 2 frames (one outbound, one inbound means no spare capacity in case one goes inop or if something else comes up). You will need 5 to provide the coverage (due to faster transit speeds the P-8 can do more than the P-3).
Apparently they are considering getting drones to assist (more for surveillance) however overall we should be increasing our ability (we've added 30% to our population since we got the P-3s and our EEZ has grown) so 5x P-8s PLUS drones would do this.
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moo
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue May 02, 2017 9:31 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I've read on another forum that the P1 and C2 have a common type rating, I can't find anything official to prove or disprove this, does anyone know. If this is correct that's another tick in Kawasaki box.


A conventional tail low wing aircraft and a high wing t-tail aircraft sharing a type rating....?

Has that ever been done before? I would have thought that the handling characteristics were too different...
 
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brianK73
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:52 am

Just stumbled upon this news item reporting a talk between UAE and Japan on the possibility of sale of Kawasaki C-2s to UAE.
Japan in talks to export defense aircraft to UAE
TOKYO -- Japan could be on the verge of exporting its first piece of finished defense equipment.

The government is considering sales of the Air Self-Defense Force's latest transport aircraft, the C-2, to the United Arab Emirates, The Nikkei learned on Saturday.

Government ministries are already providing specifications and other related information about the vehicle to the UAE. Now the two countries have to conclude a treaty regarding the transfer of defense equipment and technology -- an essential step before the C-2 can be sent to the UAE.


Does UAE have actual needs for long-haul strategic cargo transport?
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:08 am

brianK73 wrote:
Just stumbled upon this news item reporting a talk between UAE and Japan on the possibility of sale of Kawasaki C-2s to UAE.
Japan in talks to export defense aircraft to UAE
TOKYO -- Japan could be on the verge of exporting its first piece of finished defense equipment.

The government is considering sales of the Air Self-Defense Force's latest transport aircraft, the C-2, to the United Arab Emirates, The Nikkei learned on Saturday.

Government ministries are already providing specifications and other related information about the vehicle to the UAE. Now the two countries have to conclude a treaty regarding the transfer of defense equipment and technology -- an essential step before the C-2 can be sent to the UAE.


Does UAE have actual needs for long-haul strategic cargo transport?

Yep, they do have 8 C-17's, and their C-130's are getting up there in age. They also have a lot of hardware that is built and maintained overseas, so they need the ability to move it to and from the UAE. Not to mention the UAE's humanitarian missions overseas.
 
Ozair
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:03 am

brianK73 wrote:
Just stumbled upon this news item reporting a talk between UAE and Japan on the possibility of sale of Kawasaki C-2s to UAE.
Japan in talks to export defense aircraft to UAE
TOKYO -- Japan could be on the verge of exporting its first piece of finished defense equipment.

The government is considering sales of the Air Self-Defense Force's latest transport aircraft, the C-2, to the United Arab Emirates, The Nikkei learned on Saturday.

Government ministries are already providing specifications and other related information about the vehicle to the UAE. Now the two countries have to conclude a treaty regarding the transfer of defense equipment and technology -- an essential step before the C-2 can be sent to the UAE.


Does UAE have actual needs for long-haul strategic cargo transport?

If this happens that is a big indicator of trouble for future exports of the A400M. The C-2 is as close to a competitor in the size/payload range while lacking the rough field capability, which few nations actually need. If the UAE does go for the C-2 it will provide the Japanese with the export success they need to market more aggressively and given the C-2 is cheaper than the A400M it may become a very competitive option.
 
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brianK73
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:32 am

Kawasaki C-2 is more of a long-distance, medium lift, peacetime transport that happens to be capable of hauling some military equipment to intact airports in low-threat environments.
As such, I do not see the C-2 as a direct competitor to the A400M that is meant to be a robust military transport to unimproved airfields in low-to-medium threat environments.
 
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:15 pm

The C-2 has better hot/high performance than any military or civilian aircraft short of fighters, so that might be of interest to UAE. The thrust to weight ratio is better than the Citation X and only behind the Learjet 31. The thing is a rocket.
 
Ozair
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:22 pm

brianK73 wrote:
Kawasaki C-2 is more of a long-distance, medium lift, peacetime transport that happens to be capable of hauling some military equipment to intact airports in low-threat environments.
As such, I do not see the C-2 as a direct competitor to the A400M that is meant to be a robust military transport to unimproved airfields in low-to-medium threat environments.

Which is why I indicated that it doesn't have the rough field capability of the A400M. From the A400M thread it appears that few nations require that rough field capability, and the increased price tags that comes with it, hence why the C-2 may become very attractive on the export market.
 
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brianK73
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Re: Kawasaki P-2 and C-2 for New Zealand?

Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:02 am

Thanks for the great points.

If a potential customer does not need a rough field performance nor high-threat operational capability, a simpler cargo jet equipped with a pair of ubiquitous CF6 engines may be easier to maintain and support, with a hot-and-high performance as a bonus.

I get it now.

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