The Norwegian Government purchases survaillance aircraft for 11 billion NOK

The government has signed a memorandum for new surveillance aircraft with a price tag of 11 billion NOK, writes the newspaper Klassekampen. The newspaper reports that the Ministry of Defence has signed a secret letter of intent for the purchase of surveillance planes P8 Poseidon. In June, newspaper VG wrote that the six Orion aircraft will be replaced with four new maritime patrol aircraft. (NTB)

Apparently the purchase will be from 2020 and 4 years onwards.

The ministry has so far not been willing to confirm or deny the information

If true, isn't 11 billion NOK a lot of money for only 4 Boeing Poseidon ? I would have thought we would have gotten more than 4 aircraft for that kind of money ?

http://www.klassekampen.no/article/2016 ... /160819993

I really hope that the Orion airplanes are replaced by the P8 Poseidon. I agree that the price tag is high, could it be a life cycle cost?

11 bn NOK (1.3-ish billion USD) doesn't sound too odd, considering India just picked up four P-8I for around 1 bn USD.

Cheers
A

angad84 wrote:

11 bn NOK (1.3-ish billion USD) doesn't sound too odd, considering India just picked up four P-8I for around 1 bn USD.

Cheers
A

I think it is a good price overall. The RAAF paid the following,

The acquisition of the eight P-8A aircraft will cost approximately $4 billion, including support facilities.

https://www.airforce.gov.au/Boeing-P8-A-Poseidon/?RAAF-Z4PUOpGXH/eLtWmc6qxYl9xYycb+rKng
Not sure how much infrastructure is included in the RAAF price or whether the RAAF acquisition includes weapons/sonar buoys and spares but it feels like the Norwegians are getting a good price for the capability.

This order was just as predicted by myself and several others. It's basically the only choice for this role, but it's a great aircraft either way. Four frames doesn't sound like much though. On average one aircraft will most likely be in maintenance or used for spare parts, and that leaves three for operational use.

JetBuddy wrote:

This order was just as predicted by myself and several others. It's basically the only choice for this role, but it's a great aircraft either way. Four frames doesn't sound like much though. On average one aircraft will most likely be in maintenance or used for spare parts, and that leaves three for operational use.

Yes, this is what I am thinking too. As always, Norwegian politicians think money and money only and are too shortsighted.

JetBuddy wrote:

Four frames doesn't sound like much though. On average one aircraft will most likely be in maintenance or used for spare parts, and that leaves three for operational use.

You are replacing the 4 P-3 one for one. You will find that the 737 frame will be more reliable than the P-3 (it better be). On the air frame structure and engines, you will have lots more spare parts to select from with the commercial 737 frames out there and the Boeing product support. Your operation tempo will only be limited by the mission specific hardware. Those mission specific hardware would probably not ground the airplane rather would just impact certain aspect of the mission suite.

Bottom line, unless you are 20 or 30 years down the life cycle, you will not sit one plane out for spares.

bt

bikerthai wrote:

JetBuddy wrote:

Four frames doesn't sound like much though. On average one aircraft will most likely be in maintenance or used for spare parts, and that leaves three for operational use.

You are replacing the 4 P-3 one for one.

bt

Norway has 6 P3's, so no we are not. And while some would argue that 2 of the m is for coast guard work, all 6 flies under the Royal Norwegian Air force emblem.

Mortyman wrote:

And while some would argue that 2 of the m is for coast guard work,

Which would suggest they may want a smaller platform to replace those two. The P-8A would be overkill for Coast Guard duties, unless you consider those frames as reserved forces similar to our National Guard here in the US.

Or you can move the 4 P-3 to coast guard duties or keep them as spares for the remaining working P-3's. You'll probably have more ideas on how to work that out.

bt

This platform continues to grow from strength to strength. The US, Australia, UK, India and Norway are now all on board. Right now there are requirements for 150 frames. That number will only go up.

CX747 wrote:

This platform continues to grow from strength to strength. The US, Australia, UK, India and Norway are now all on board. Right now there are requirements for 150 frames. That number will only go up.

I think you can expect a purchase form NZ in the next few years.

According to Lieutenant Colonel Bernt Martinussen of the Royal Norwegian Air Force, one of the main reasons for choosing the P-8 Poseidon was that it can easily work together with MQ-4 Triton. And I've previously read that they're also considering air-refueling options for the F-35s. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a follow up order of 2-4 MQ-4 Triton in a few years, as well as A330MRTT or KC-46 which both could refuel F-35 and P-8.

Even more likely is that Norway consolidates MQ-4 Triton and A330MRTT operations with the RAF who will also operate P-8 and F-35. After BREXIT is in effect, I suspect there will be closer ties between Norway and the UK in multiple areas including Defence.

On a seperate note, the US Navy is proposing stationing P-8 Poseidons both in Norway and Iceland as well.

JetBuddy wrote:

On a seperate note, the US Navy is proposing stationing P-8 Poseidons both in Norway and.

Why would the USA want to do that and would the Norwegian government allow such a thing ? Wouldn't it be regarded as a foreign operated base ?

Might be a rotational thing. Since Norway will have a facility for the P-8A, you can take advantage of the base to rotate your squadron through to gain valuable experience operating in the region. Beside, this would be an FMS purchase, and I would not be surprised if the basing agreement was a stipulation in the purchasing requirements.

bt

Mortyman wrote:

JetBuddy wrote:

On a seperate note, the US Navy is proposing stationing P-8 Poseidons both in Norway and.

Why would the USA want to do that and would the Norwegian government allow such a thing ? Wouldn't it be regarded as a foreign operated base ?

The 333 Squadron are some of the best submarine hunters in the world, but the capacity is limited. The Russians have dramatically increased their operations in the area. The US can operate out of any Norwegian bases, but a permanent station needs to be politically approved. I don't think it will be a problem, and I don't see why it would be a bad thing. We need more capacity, and a US detachment includes infrastructure. It won't cost us anything.

http://www.tv2.no/a/8459110/

JetBuddy wrote:

Mortyman wrote:

JetBuddy wrote:

On a seperate note, the US Navy is proposing stationing P-8 Poseidons both in Norway and.

Why would the USA want to do that and would the Norwegian government allow such a thing ? Wouldn't it be regarded as a foreign operated base ?

The 333 Squadron are some of the best submarine hunters in the world, but the capacity is limited. The Russians have dramatically increased their operations in the area. The US can operate out of any Norwegian bases, but a permanent station needs to be politically approved. I don't think it will be a problem, and I don't see why it would be a bad thing. We need more capacity, and a US detachment includes infrastructure. It won't cost us anything.

http://www.tv2.no/a/8459110/

yes, but I thought the official policy of Norway for several decades have been NO foreign operated bases on Norwegian soil.

bikerthai wrote:

Might be a rotational thing. Since Norway will have a facility for the P-8A, you can take advantage of the base to rotate your squadron through to gain valuable experience operating in the region. Beside, this would be an FMS purchase, and I would not be surprised if the basing agreement was a stipulation in the purchasing requirements.

bt

A thousand reasons why US may "stipulate" access for a base and a thousand ways they can do that but having it in the FMS contract will not be one of them.
Iceland permanent basing is a given ,http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2016/02/18/us-navy-talks-use-icelands-keflavik-air-base-again/80561786/
I doubt they will be based in Norway so much as rotated through on occasion.

Wonder how much offsets Oslo are asking for, UK didnt ask for any which was very surprising http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/un ... ed-support

Mortyman wrote:

yes, but I thought the official policy of Norway for several decades have been NO foreign operated bases on Norwegian soil.

I my mind there's not a lot of difference between a base and the vast storage caves full of US equipment located in several locations around Norway.

Is there a way to multiquote in the new forum?

Mortyman:
I think you're right about that. But it's basically a technicality. I imagine it will be something like trex8 mentions, a US Navy detachment rotating P-8s from Iceland or elsewhere on basis of demand and availability. We've had US military stationed in Norway before, both "under the radar" and officially sanctioned.

trex8:
I think the US Navy is thinking of investing in infrastructure for P-8 operations and rotating a few aircraft between Keflavik and Andøya or Evenes, depending on where the RnoAF decides to base the P-8s. Living quarters and minimum requirements for military personell will have to be included. We'll have to see.

Kiwirob:
That's a good point, but those caves are administred and maintained by the Norwegian military. Even the equipment inside is taken care of by Norwegians. I don't think there will be a big issue stationing US Navy personell in Norway though. They're already here at different locations including the NATO Joint Warfare Centre.

JetBuddy wrote:

Is there a way to multiquote in the new forum?

If you hit the full editpr button, you can then quotes of specific text instead of the whole post. You can also do multiple quotes from there. Or at least that's how it works on my PC.

trex8 wrote:

having it in the FMS contract will not be one of them.

Having it in the contract makes it "official" although it would also it would also make the contract unwieldy and leave no room for the politicians to maneuver. You may be right.

bt

Quick question at MTOW how much runway would a P8 use at sealevel?

Re: multi-quote: there was a good faq on how to do it at viewforum.php?f=12 but since the site search feature (still) is ass, I can't find it. Perhaps post there asking for it to be re-posted or linked?

bikerthai wrote:

If you hit the full editpr button, you can then quotes of specific text instead of the whole post. You can also do multiple quotes from there. Or at least that's how it works on my PC.

Thanks! Figured it out

Revelation wrote:

Re: multi-quote: there was a good faq on how to do it at viewforum.php?f=12 but since the site search feature (still) is ass, I can't find it. Perhaps post there asking for it to be re-posted or linked?

Thanks, I'm slowly getting used to the new forums.. liking it more and more. But some stuff is still missing.

Kiwirob wrote:

Quick question at MTOW how much runway would a P8 use at sealevel?

Good question. MTOW is 189,200 lb, which is more than the 737-900ER, and way more than the 737-800. It uses the standard CFM-56-7B turbofan with 27,000 lbf thrust.. but the wings are redesigned for loitering 10,000 feet above sea level for hours, instead of cruising as fast as possible at a higher altitude from A to B. Since the wings are optimised for lower altitude, I'm guessing they'll have better lift at sea level too. The standard 737-800NG has a take-off run at about 2,400m at MTOW, the 737-900ER about 3,000m. So my guess would be between 2,500m and 3,000m somewhere.

The Norwegian government will spend 10 billion in order to get five US surveillance aircraft category P8 Poseidon. They will eventually replace Orion planes now flying out of the base at Andøya.

At the Cabinet meeting on Friday morning the government confirmed that this is the new maritime patrol aicraft, which is scheduled to be delivered in 2021 and 2022.

Before the ink is dry on the defense settlement between the government parties and the Labor Party, Defence Minister Ine Eriksen Søreide (H) wants the Parliament to give her the authority to acquire five new P8 aircraft from the US.

In the plan the parties agreed that the future surveillance aircraft will be based at Evenes and that Andøy base will be closed down.


http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/fors ... /23856656/

Good news to get this confirmed. I'm pretty certain it will be approved in Parliament as well, with all three major parties (AP/H/FrP) supporting the purchase. They're talking about cooperating with the RAF in regards to maintenance and survaillance of the Norwegian Sea and Barents Sea, which makes a lot of sense.

The aircraft will be purchased through the American "Foreign Military Sales" programme, meaning the US will benefit from the sales with regards to strengthening US security. There's been some US Navy P-8s visiting recently, most likely because our own P-3s have been through an upgrade programme, and there's only been one aircraft on standby which isn't good enough.

JetBuddy wrote:

Good news to get this confirmed. I'm pretty certain it will be approved in Parliament as well, with all three major parties (AP/H/FrP) supporting the purchase. They're talking about cooperating with the RAF in regards to maintenance and survaillance of the Norwegian Sea and Barents Sea, which makes a lot of sense.

The aircraft will be purchased through the American "Foreign Military Sales" programme, meaning the US will benefit from the sales with regards to strengthening US security. There's been some US Navy P-8s visiting recently, most likely because our own P-3s have been through an upgrade programme, and there's only been one aircraft on standby which isn't good enough.

At least one good thing emerging from the defense settlement .

For a while there, I thought that Korea might beat Norway to the punch. But looks like Norway is on the inside track to be the next customer. And if they are getting the US Navy version, they can get them relatively quickly.

bt

bikerthai wrote:

For a while there, I thought that Korea might beat Norway to the punch. But looks like Norway is on the inside track to be the next customer. And if they are getting the US Navy version, they can get them relatively quickly.

bt

If things goes as planned the Norwegian order is scheduled to be delivered in 2021 and 2022

State Department cleared a sale of five P-8 maritime surveillance aircraft and equipment to Norway. Request now goes to Congress for final approval.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/sta ... -to-norway

Norway has today officially ordered 5 P-8 Poseidon as replacements for the aging P-3 Orion and DA-20 Jet Falcon fleets. The procurement is part of the United States' "Foreign Military Sales" programme. Deliveries begin 2022, and the final aircraft is delivered in 2023.

In Norwegian:
http://luftfart.media/2017/03/29/norge- ... -poseidon/

trex8 wrote:

Wonder how much offsets Oslo are asking for, UK didnt ask for any which was very surprising

Not sure about Oslo, but as for the UK. Boeing is already putting a significant amount of work in the UK. So any reasonable off-set clause for these planes would probably be moot.

FYI: The mission seats for all P-8 & I are made in the UK.

bt

The Boeing Co., Seattle, Washington, is awarded a $2,458,707,154 modification to a previously awarded firm-fixed-price, cost-plus-fixed-fee contract (N00019-14-C-0067). This modification provides for the production and delivery of 19 P-8A lot 10 aircraft to include 10 for the Navy, four for the government of the U.K. and five for the government of Norway.

Read more here:

https://dod.defense.gov/News/Contracts/ ... e/1741001/