thaiflyer
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Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:30 pm

Today it is announced that the Netherlands and Luxembourg are buying together 2 A330 tankers.
As Luxembourg doesn't have a air-force the tankers will be stationed and used by the Dutch air-force.
Luxembourg is included in the deal to increase the NATO air refueling capabilities.
The A330 will replace the Dutch KDC-10 tanker.
Source in Dutch:
http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/luchtmacht- ... ~a3c9a17c/
 
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Iemand91
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:06 pm

It was a long time coming.

More info on the Dutch Armed Forces website: https://www.defensie.nl/actueel/nieuws/ ... liegtuigen
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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747classic
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:25 am

The idea for a joint european tanker/transport fleet seems sound, but ...............................

An investment between $ 1.000.000.000 and $ 250.000.000 depending other nations participating ?????

Are we again the" best kid in class " ?

Hopefully this won't become the next financial disaster for the Dutch tanker/transport fleet after the KDC-10 fleet expansion with a third modified DC-10 aircraft. (buy- modify -scrap, wihout any production)

What type of powerplants are included, GE or RR ?
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:47 pm

747classic wrote:
An investment between $ 1.000.000.000 and $ 250.000.000 depending other nations participating ?????


That is indeed quite ridiculous, how can you make such a decision? As an Dutch taxpayer, I am disappointed in my government.

I thought the Belgiums were thinking about adding this kind of capability to their air force, why not at least have Belgium to join and have 4 or 5 a/c to have a decent fleet at least.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:49 am

Dutchy wrote:
747classic wrote:
An investment between $ 1.000.000.000 and $ 250.000.000 depending other nations participating ?????


That is indeed quite ridiculous, how can you make such a decision? As an Dutch taxpayer, I am disappointed in my government.

I thought the Belgiums were thinking about adding this kind of capability to their air force, why not at least have Belgium to join and have 4 or 5 a/c to have a decent fleet at least.

It's very likely procurement + support costs for a number of years. Generally, support costs is usually double or triple the costs to buy the aircraft in the first place over a period of 20 years.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:31 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
747classic wrote:
An investment between $ 1.000.000.000 and $ 250.000.000 depending other nations participating ?????


That is indeed quite ridiculous, how can you make such a decision? As an Dutch taxpayer, I am disappointed in my government.

I thought the Belgiums were thinking about adding this kind of capability to their air force, why not at least have Belgium to join and have 4 or 5 a/c to have a decent fleet at least.

It's very likely procurement + support costs for a number of years. Generally, support costs is usually double or triple the costs to buy the aircraft in the first place over a period of 20 years.


I understand, but 0,25b - 1b, this cost varies on the number of participating nations, not procurement plus support. I would say, first work out the details of the number of participants and then procurement when you know the cost, not the other way around.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
TasosANG
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:24 am

sorry first all, but now i am somewhere in the end of this world and i can not open the link of AD.
Just by reading the posts, i have some questions about this project.
1. do we speek for new build airplanes or second hand?
2.this "depending other nations participating" means that still more countries can joint the project? and if yes, can also increase the number of the aircrafts?
3.So this used by Dutch air force means that they will not serve any need of Luxenburg? and if they do the -at least one- which will be in use with the RNAF is enough?
4. as Luxenburg has no air force means that all pilots and technical personel will be from Holland?
5.the DC 10are maintened by KLM? the same will be for the A330?
As an investment, sounds quite expensive, and RNAF having also the F35 program in progress looks live they invest quite a lot of money last years. From this point of view sound at least good the idea to share this program with someone else to reduse the cost. I hope only that will be like this and will not become heavier for our pockets than to have run this program alone.
:P
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:48 pm

1. do we speek for new build airplanes or second hand?


It appears to be new build A330s.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:20 pm

Norway and Polen are considering a participation in the program ...
 
petertenthije
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:11 am

TasosANG wrote:
1. do we speek for new build airplanes or second hand?
These will be new.

TasosANG wrote:
2.this "depending other nations participating" means that still more countries can joint the project? and if yes, can also increase the number of the aircrafts?
The two planes on order are confirmed. They will be operated by joint Dutch and Luxemburg air force from Eindhoven airbase (NL) with Dutch markings. Additional air forces can join. Eindhoven at the moment has capacity for up to eight MRTT's, but there is room to expand if necessary.

TasosANG wrote:
3.So this used by Dutch air force means that they will not serve any need of Luxenburg? and if they do the -at least one- which will be in use with the RNAF is enough?
The Luxemburg air force can also use them. It's similar to Luxemburgs agreement with Belgium. Luxemburg bought a single A400 which is operated from Belgium. Their investment share determines the split in flight hours (or cycles, or... whatever measure has been decised)

TasosANG wrote:
4. as Luxenburg has no air force means that all pilots and technical personel will be from Holland?
I don't know.

TasosANG wrote:
5.the DC 10are maintened by KLM? the same will be for the A330?
I don't think KLM does the maintenance on the KDC-10s. I believe that's done somewhere in England?

Basically the long term plan is to operate the tankers like the NATO C-17s based at Papa air base in Hungary. Several nations bought into a fleet of 4 C-17s and depending on the nation's share of the investment they get to use share the flight hours. While the proposed tanker fleet at the moment only includes The Netherlands and Luxemburg, several other nations have shown interest. In particular Norway and Poland.
Attamottamotta!
 
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Iemand91
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:39 am

petertenthije wrote:
I don't think KLM does the maintenance on the KDC-10s. I believe that's done somewhere in England?

From what I could find it's done by Garuda Maintenance Facility (GMF) in Jakarta; the same company that does (some) maintenance on KLM 747's (like heavy D-checks).
That company got a contract for maintenance in 2007 that would go on until 2025 when the aircraft were deemed end of life.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
bennett123
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:47 am

When was the third DC10 scrapped.

Will these two also be scrapped.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:29 pm

The DC-10 was scrapped in April 2014. A complete waste of resources as it had completed a major overhaul complete with glass cockpit in 2011.

The other two will eventually be scrapped as well I think. No doubt they will be put up for sale, but the KDC-10s also have the modernised glass cockpit. This makes them unique in the world which makes resale very hard. The USAF would not operate them as the KDC-10s are completely different from their KC-10s.

The only party that might show some interest are probably Omega Air Refueling or perhaps that DC-10 firefighter group.
Attamottamotta!
 
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Iemand91
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Re: Netherlands and Luxembourg buying 2 A330 tankers.

Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:54 am

Meanwhile, Germany and Norway have joined the program and they ordered 5 more tankers; 7 total.
4 of them will be stationed at Eindhoven Air Base. The 3 others in Germany.
They expect Belgium to join the program in 2018.

On November 1st; two RNLAF pilots will start training at KLM for the A330; starting with typerating with the simulator.
Next they will be flying as co-pilots at regular flights at KLM. After gaining experience, they will start training for captain and instructor on the A330.
They expect to finish the typerating part in February 2018.
This collaboration with KLM is for gaining experience with the A330 so that in the future, the RNLAF can develop trainingprograms for the international Multi Role Transport Tanker (MRTT) organisation which will start in 2020.

First A330 tanker is expected to land at Eindhoven Air Base in 2020.

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Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/

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