agill
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Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:16 am

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/mideast-africa/2016/06/15/gripens-botswana-f-5-military-equipment/85939750/

Well I guess the article says it all. Botswana looking to buy JAS39C/D to replace it's F5 fighters. Nice for Saab if the deal goes through.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:28 am

It has been known for a while that negotiations have been ongoing between BDF and Swedish FMV .
It seems that it might be surplus fighters and not new jets. Sweden will be getting the new E version with a delivery start in 2018.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /84598556/
http://www.mmegi.bw/index.php?aid=15659
http://www.sydsvenskan.se/2016-05-13/ev ... d-botswana
http://www.janes.com/article/60468/bots ... uisitions'
http://www.businessweekly.co.bw/3536-2/

The last article contains some pretty large errors like calling Switzerland a Swedish neighbour :shock:
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:41 pm

Most likely used ones from Swedish AF,still great if true! :)
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
Ozair
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:30 am

SAS A340 wrote:
Most likely used ones from Swedish AF,still great if true! :)

Apparently a BDF report has been leaked that makes it pretty clear there is little economic rationale for the replacement of the F-5 with the Gripen or TA-50 and strongly hints at corruption being a central driver in the potential acquisition. Given the non-existent threat Botswana faces keeping the existing F-5s is the right thing to do.

The report is also pretty damming on the BDF and flight currency for its aircrew.

Leaked documents reveal for the first time that the Botswana Defence Force (BDF), concerned over lack of training and insufficient logistical support advised its chain of command to upgrade the 28 Squadron’s existing F-5 planes as opposed to buying new aircraft.
A confidential military report, indicating that the “28 Squadron has been tasked to research on the viability of operating the BF-5 and make recommendations based on their findings” was presented to the highest chain of command in the BDF. The Report, which was prepared to advise on whether it would be cost effective to engage in an outright purchase of new aircraft and further develop BDF’s airwing, recommends that government does not purchase new aircraft, “As thus (sic) we advise that the BF-5 platform should be kept, but instead change to the BF-5E variant. The same approach is being used by other operators of the F-5 worldwide, hence this platform has been found to be sustainable and relatively less expensive to maintain” advises the report.
Ignoring the Report’s recommendations President Khama, in his capacity as Commander in Chief has engaged in talks with both Sweden and South Korea to purchase military aircraft. In 2015 Khama was invited to South Korea to inspect South Korean military aircraft, during his visit he was awarded an Honorary Doctorate Degree in Political Science. In June 2017, Sweden invited Khama to view their military facilities and inspect the Gripen C/D state of the art fourth generation fighter jet. The move by Khama, a civilian though the former commander of the BDF, is seen by some in the BDF chain of Command as undermining the subservient role that the military ought to play in a democracy and elevating it above its oversight organs in parliament such as the Public Accounts Committee, the Parliamentary Committee on Foreign Affairs, Trade and Security and the Parliamentary Committee on Finance and Estimates.
In justifying its position as to the need to upgrade its existing aircraft and not purchase a new fleet, the Report by the BDF highlights the increased expense of purchasing new supersonic aircraft, which cannot be seen as the cost of new aircraft alone.
The Report advises that within the existing framework of the airwing additional training craft will be required, which the BDF currently does not possess, highlighted by the finding that, “under training pilots should be exposed to an intermediate trainer before they commence their flying on the BF-5. This will definitely result in a smooth transition from a slow speed conventional trainer to a twin engine supersonic fighter. Modalities regarding sending BDF pilots abroad to a suitable country or to conduct in-country lead-in training could be worked out keeping the overall cost-effectiveness in mind. In such a scenario, BDF will not only get 4-5 better skilled and operationally orientated pilots every year but will also be required to have shorter conversion periods and syllabi on their return.”
The inability of current pilots, trained on BDF’s trainer aircraft, the PC-7 to successfully move over to the current turbo jet F-5’s, is cause for concern in the Report, noting that “training pilots find it difficult to handle the BF-5 in the desired fashion during the initial part of their syllabus which shows that there is a quantum jump for these trainees from a turbo prop trainer of PC-7 class to a high speed, swept back platform of the BF-5”. The current BDF F-5 have a top flight speed of Mach 1.64 as compared to the Gripen C and D designations which reach speeds of Mach 2.
In order to retain their fighter pilot credentials air force pilots are required to continuously undertake a specified number of flight hours. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) established the international standard for fighter pilots to log a minimum of 20 flight hours per month (240 flight hours per year per fighter pilot) to remain qualified. The leaked Report reveals that the BDF’s pilots log considerably less than the international standard, indicating that “from 1996 to 24/01/2013, the actual total hours flown by 14 aircraft is 8901.2 hours. The average hours flown by each aircraft is 421.5 hours,” or 3 hours per month per pilot.
As a result of the lack of flight time, the Report notes that the BDF airwing will not in the foreseeable future be combat ready with only 5 of the 11 pilots being qualified to fly the F-5’s, “at present, there are only 5 qualified operational pilots in the squadron and with the rate of flying (3 hours/ pilot/ month), it will take us a very longtime (sic) to have 21 qualified operational pilots which is our target, hence the squadron will continue to be a training squadron.”
Pilot training costs and retention of pilots raise additional costs for the airwing, emphasises the Report. Under the current BDF airwing the need to increase personnel remains a priority, “The squadron currently has 11 pilots and 85 maintenance crew comprising of engineers and technicians. To efficiently operate and maintain a fleet of 14 aircrafts, the squadron needs to increase its current strength to 135 personnel: 21 pilots and 114 maintenance crew.” The veil of secrecy surrounding the intended purchase of the new airfleet means that such additional costs, of training and logistics has not been publically disclosed.
While the Report does not estimate the costs of an entirely new unit, it does acknowledge that the cost of training new pilots for the F-5 “is divided into two main categories: local and external pilot training. From 1996 to 2000, a total of $2 169 984.00 (~ P9 764 928.00) has been spent on 12 students sent abroad for pilot training. The average student training cost was about P813 744.00.” Local training using international instructors over the same period was P86 088 749.00.
The air requirements of the BDF, can be met without needing to purchase an entirely new fleet as the existing F-5’s will be able to continue to serve the country to the next 15 years without placing undue financial constraints on the fiscal, “the BF-5 platform is capable of carrying some of the latest armament in the world and therefore with minor modifications/additions such as Forward Air Control Systems, Mapping and Mission Planning Systems, the aircraft can be used as effectively as some of the latest fighter platforms in the market.”
Concluding their Report, military experts from within the BDF and internationally highlight that “It should be taken into consideration the fact that for a fighter aircraft to be kept in the air a suitable set of ground support equipment has to be put in place and it goes without saying that a lot of funds have to be made available to acquire those”.
Government has not disclosed the total cost of the intended purchase of the new airwing for the BDF, with estimates in the media indicating that the purchase of the aircraft will set the taxpayer back in the region of P17 billion. The cost estimate have however been based on the unit price for each aircraft and not ancillary costs.
The Report, is clear in its recommendations that that BDF does not see the need for an entirely new airwing, desiring instead to focus on improving its logistical and training capabilities at considerably lower expenses than that currently engaged in by government, raising the question as to why the Khama led Cabinet is currently engaging in refleeting 28 Squadron.
Seleka Springs a company owned by the President’s brothers, acted as the agent for the 1996 purchase of the F-5 “Freedom Fighters” for 28 Squadron. Seleka Springs’ commission for the purchase has not been disclosed to the public.

http://www.sundaystandard.info/bdf-command-recommended-f5-upgrade-%E2%80%93-khama-ignores-advice
 
bigjku
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:42 pm

Was discussed elsewhere but as the old f-5 and Mig-21 types go beyond flyable life I am not sure what is a realistic replacement. For a huge number of these nations almost anything that can be had is too advanced for them to maintain and use. I suspect a lot of air forces with very old fast jet forces will simply lose the capability.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:45 pm

Yes some will lose the capability, the question is, does that really matter? I think this is pretty smart of Botswana. No need to have high-end fighter capability. This money is better spent elsewhere. And in this case better spent within the Air Force to have a trained and fully operational squadron.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bigjku
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yes some will lose the capability, the question is, does that really matter? I think this is pretty smart of Botswana. No need to have high-end fighter capability. This money is better spent elsewhere. And in this case better spent within the Air Force to have a trained and fully operational squadron.


I agree. I will be curious to see if some lower end offerings get traffic. The Textron plane, or even the new trainer the US buys. Maybe the Korean plane. But all those but the US trainer have been around for a while and don’t seem to be wanted. With a large installed user base a weaponized US trainer might get some traction.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:50 pm

This may be a silly question but isn't the F-16 a good "new" version of the F-5? It is relatively low cost, fairly modern (very in its latest iteration), and the support cost are lower than for many other aircraft since it is single engine with a large spares pipeline.

There are certainly lower cost aircraft but it is a good near top line one.

Tugg
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Dutchy
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:26 pm

TA-50 would be the best bed, or whatever turns out to be the next trainer for the US airforce and then the armed version of it. The F-5 is more or less an armed version of the T-38 anyway.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bigjku
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:39 pm

Tugger wrote:
This may be a silly question but isn't the F-16 a good "new" version of the F-5? It is relatively low cost, fairly modern (very in its latest iteration), and the support cost are lower than for many other aircraft since it is single engine with a large spares pipeline.

There are certainly lower cost aircraft but it is a good near top line one.

Tugg


Once you get past the very early A models the F-16 is a pretty complicated beast. Relative to other fighters sure, it’s cheaper. But it’s still a modern multi-role fighter.
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:57 am

And there aren´t any used Gripen C/D,s to get any more and i guess new ones isn´t on the table ;)
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:49 am

When the Swedes get the E/Fs, there will be used frames around.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:44 pm

Gripen makes sense if they work out a maintenance deal with South Africa.
 
Ozair
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:27 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Gripen makes sense if they work out a maintenance deal with South Africa.


seahawk wrote:
When the Swedes get the E/Fs, there will be used frames around.


Dutchy wrote:
TA-50 would be the best bed, or whatever turns out to be the next trainer for the US airforce and then the armed version of it. The F-5 is more or less an armed version of the T-38 anyway.


Neither Gripen or TA-50 or F-16 make any economic sense. The article states these aircrew are flying sometimes 3-5 hours a month, flying an airframe that has a radar or other BVR capability is literally pointless as the aircrew won’t have enough hours to maintain even basic proficiency. If they absolutely need FW aviation then their current fleet has plenty of hours left to continue and even increase flight hours. There are also enough spares available for the F-5A that they won’t run out anytime soon.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:43 pm

Ozair wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The F-5 is more or less an armed version of the T-38 anyway.
If they absolutely need FW aviation then their current fleet has plenty of hours left to continue and even increase flight hours. There are also enough spares available for the F-5A that they won’t run out anytime soon.


FWIW, Botswana's F-5s are actually Canadair built, Ex RCAF CF-5s.
(Oh no, not Canadair again!! Don't tell Boeing; they might somehow see legal ground for dumping here :duck: )

"Compared to the Northrop F-5, the Canadian CF-5 had several modifications to make it more suitable for operating in Canadian Forces theaters of operations. In order to address complaints about long takeoff runs, the Canadair version featured a two-position nose landing gear; compressed it operated like the original, but extended (before takeoff) it raised the nose and thereby increased the angle of attack and increased lift. The system reduced takeoff distance by almost 20%.
A midair refueling probe was installed, Orenda built General Electric J85-15 engines with 4,300 lbf (19 kN) thrust were used, and a more sophisticated navigation system was added. The nose of the CF-5 was also interchangeable with a specially designed reconnaissance set with four cameras in it. Over the course of its life, it received many upgrades to its avionics and capabilities."

About the avionics, Bristol Aerospace in Winnipeg had just completed a complete avionics upgrade when Canada gave away 13 of those to Botswana, in 1996...
 
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Slug71
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:07 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Gripen makes sense if they work out a maintenance deal with South Africa.


BAE Hawk is probably a better option.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:09 pm

M-346 could be good too.
 
olle
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:53 pm

Does not Swedish airforce have stored older frames that it probably want to get rid of now?
 
Ozair
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:24 pm

olle wrote:
Does not Swedish airforce have stored older frames that it probably want to get rid of now?

Not at the moment. There are no more stored A or C models with all remaining A models having been converted to C and either sold/leased to export customers or inducted into the Swedish Air Force. Perhaps in 10 years time there will be some retirements of current in service C models which will hit the second hand market but, given existing tesniosns, I believe the Swedes are considering keeping many in service for longer than expected.
 
angad84
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:02 am

olle wrote:
Does not Swedish airforce have stored older frames that it probably want to get rid of now?

Saab's building C/D white tails.
 
Ozair
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:24 am

angad84 wrote:
Saab's building C/D white tails.

From May this year, Saab clearly state they are not building white tails.

While the Gripen production line will be kept humming into the foreseeable future with orders for new E/F models from Sweden and Brazil, the last delivery of the C/D variants occurred in 2015. Smith confirmed that Saab had started some "essential work" on new "C" models to shorten the delivery timeline for future orders, but declined to elaborate on whether that included purchasing long-lead items or if some construction had begun.

"We haven't specified those aircraft for a specific country, and we've not built any white tails," he said. White tail is a term used to describe aircraft made without a firm customer on order.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/05/10/saab-looks-toward-three-critical-competitions-for-near-term-gripen-c-d-sales/
 
angad84
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Re: Botswana to acquire JAS Gripen

Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:33 am

There were at least a half dozen at Linköping in September. They declined to confirm the customer. If we're being pedantic, they're not white tails... but, y'know....

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