Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:46 pm

WIederling wrote:
keesje wrote:
The RAF selected their nearly retired Tornado's for the job.


don't risk expensive stuff that you would like to continue using.


Or take all the life out of your assets. Seems like a wise decision.
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
keesje wrote:
The RAF selected their nearly retired Tornado's for the job.


don't risk expensive stuff that you would like to continue using.


Bullshit reason. Not even a funny comment.


Thanks for your reply about stealth.

I wonder however, why your replies are sometimes so unnecessary harsh when you don't agree with something like in the above quoted case. Is sharing opinions only ok if you tend to agree?
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:54 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:

don't risk expensive stuff that you would like to continue using.


Bullshit reason. Not even a funny comment.


Thanks for your reply about stealth.

I wonder however, why your replies are sometimes so unnecessary harsh when you don't agree with something like in the above quoted case. Is sharing opinions only ok if you tend to agree?


This attack is dead serious, people are murdered, a retaliation is launched to prevent it happening again, potentially killing more (innocent) people and risking pilots lives, but possibly also escalating the conflict (russia), triggering retaliations. The write-off value of a few fighter aircraft is the least concern of the decision makers. This isn't a game, it's for real.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:00 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
Serious question as I have no clue about it: Realistically, what would it take to significantly, as in it actually matters in combat, reduce RCS for any conventional design?
I know that starting green field would be optimal as it ensures a fully integrated stealth approach.
But what can be achieved without compromising effectivity/flyability of the design?

Technically it is possible and several airframes have gone through similar treatments. For example the USAF F-16 fleet has gone through a number of RCS reduction measures typically captured by the Have Glass program. Info is below.

Have Glass consists of two efforts to reduce the RCS. Have Glass I adds an indium-tin-oxide layer to the gold tinted cockpit canopy. This is reflective to radar frequencies but actually reduces the plane's visibility to radar. An ordinary canopy would let radar signals straight through where they would strike the many edges and corners inside and bounce back strongly to the source, the reflective layer dissipates these signals instead. Have Glass II includes the Pacer Mud radar signature reduction and the Pacer Gem infrared signature reduction. Pacer Mud applies RAM coating to the forward and side facing areas of the F-16. These materials comprise ferromagnetic particles, embedded in a high-dielectric-constant polymer base. The dielectric material slows down the wave and the ferromagnetic particles absorb the energy. These coatings are also designed in a way that the small reflection from the front face of the absorber is cancelled by a residual reflection from the structure beneath it. For the application of this paint robots will be used, like the CASPER (Computer Aided Spray Paint Expelling Robot) system used for F-22 and the Have Glass II program used for painting 1,700 F-16s with RAM. Robots are essential because they can reach confined areas, as the inlet ducts, and can work without stepping on the aircraft. Pacer Mud processed aircraft can be recognised by their metallic like and shiny paintwork.

http://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/Lockh ... Have_Glass

So how much of a difference did the above modifications make to the RCS of the F-16? Not sure we will get an accurate answer but clearly the effort was worth it given how extensive the upgrade was to the whole fleet, and export customers.

If we look at newer airframes, such as the Eurocanards and the SH, they reportedly have clean RCS figures between 0.1 and 1 m2. I would say most of the low-hanging fruit of RCS reductions is already done and any effort to significantly impact the RCS, to achieve an order of magnitude reduction, would be a very costly exercise. As Duchy says, the RCS of these airframe sis always impacted by the carriage of external payloads so an attempt to further reduce this is probably fruitless. Boeing proposed the stealthy weapons pod for the SH for this purpose but that again will only lower the potential RCS so far compared to an internal payload.

Nicoeddf wrote:
E.g. could be non-load bearing fuselage panels be added to alter geometry?
Technical doability is more my interest, not so much cost-effectivity.

The F-16 RCS reduction apparently added approximately 100kg of RAM weigh to the empty aircraft so not a lot in the grand scheme but adding panels or other significant treatments would see increases that would directly impact performance, all in airframes that typically retain external payloads.

Additionally, adding non load bearing panels to alter the geometry of an in service design is likely to significantly impact the performance or the controllability of the jet. It would at the very least require a significant flight test program to validate the changes, especially when considering a fighter jet and the flight envelope it operates across. Boeing proposed changes to the F-15 in the form of the Silent Eagle, including changing the vertical stabilizers from vertical to canted, but no-one actually took Boeing up on the offer. Again potentially a meaningful enough change to significantly impact the RCS of the F-15 (which reportedly isn’t small) but I’d say the lack of a customer was because the cost of the certification program required to re-validate the flight envelope.

IMO for existing 4th gen designs the money would be better spent in upgrading EW systems or long range weapons and sensors to defeat the threat, given they have already hit the easy gains for RCS reduction.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:59 am

keesje wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Bullshit reason. Not even a funny comment.


Thanks for your reply about stealth.

I wonder however, why your replies are sometimes so unnecessary harsh when you don't agree with something like in the above quoted case. Is sharing opinions only ok if you tend to agree?


This attack is dead serious, people are murdered, a retaliation is launched to prevent it happening again, potentially killing more (innocent) people and risking pilots lives, but possibly also escalating the conflict (russia), triggering retaliations. The write-off value of a few fighter aircraft is the least concern of the decision makers. This isn't a game, it's for real.


Are Keesje und Dutchy the same person?

And you miss the point, as did your alter ego.
It is not about using written off equipment instead of not doing a deadly attack. The question was why the Tornado, not other assets. And in that environment it is definitely a valid concern to use the remaining life of a phased out fleet.
We are not talking morale.
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:06 am

[quote="Ozair"][/quote]

Many thanks for taking the time to explain that to me - much appreciated. :)
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:30 am

keesje wrote:
I think last nights missions in Syria were typical for the requirement the Luftwaffe will have. Range, speed, two man cockpit and stand off weapons.

The RAF selected their nearly retired Tornado's for the job and France two seat Rafales from french bases both firing Storm Shadow missiles.

https://twitter.com/Elysee/status/984984444623781888

Futhermore Cruise Missiles were fired from B1's and US and French frigattes (MdCN first?) in the Mediterranean.


The RAF selected the Tornado simply because it is the only aircraft certified to carry Storm Shadow at the moment.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:42 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
keesje wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:

Thanks for your reply about stealth.

I wonder however, why your replies are sometimes so unnecessary harsh when you don't agree with something like in the above quoted case. Is sharing opinions only ok if you tend to agree?


This attack is dead serious, people are murdered, a retaliation is launched to prevent it happening again, potentially killing more (innocent) people and risking pilots lives, but possibly also escalating the conflict (russia), triggering retaliations. The write-off value of a few fighter aircraft is the least concern of the decision makers. This isn't a game, it's for real.


Are Keesje und Dutchy the same person?

And you miss the point, as did your alter ego.
It is not about using written off equipment instead of not doing a deadly attack. The question was why the Tornado, not other assets. And in that environment it is definitely a valid concern to use the remaining life of a phased out fleet.
We are not talking morale.


Haha, must I dignify this with an answer, com'on.

It is a question of moral. What WIederling is implying that the Tornado is expendable and thus the crew is also expandable. That the RAF staff made a decision on the basis of what craft is ok to be shot down and not what is the best system to use in this specific circumstances with the best survivability for the crew. And that's why I call it a bullshit reason and I am being quite mild with this assessment.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
keesje wrote:

This attack is dead serious, people are murdered, a retaliation is launched to prevent it happening again, potentially killing more (innocent) people and risking pilots lives, but possibly also escalating the conflict (russia), triggering retaliations. The write-off value of a few fighter aircraft is the least concern of the decision makers. This isn't a game, it's for real.


Are Keesje und Dutchy the same person?

And you miss the point, as did your alter ego.
It is not about using written off equipment instead of not doing a deadly attack. The question was why the Tornado, not other assets. And in that environment it is definitely a valid concern to use the remaining life of a phased out fleet.
We are not talking morale.


Haha, must I dignify this with an answer, com'on.

It is a question of moral. What WIederling is implying that the Tornado is expendable and thus the crew is also expandable. That the RAF staff made a decision on the basis of what craft is ok to be shot down and not what is the best system to use in this specific circumstances with the best survivability for the crew. And that's why I call it a bullshit reason and I am being quite mild with this assessment.


It is a bit exhausting to discuss with you, as you fail to accept that your viewpoint isn't the only valid or even possible one. You need not to agree, but calling everything bullshit...not sure.

Military equipment is by definition expendable. And so is the crew. That's the deal if you sign into military.
Hence, it is a totally valid assumption that militaries don't risk their most expensive equipment (and crew) for low value targets.
Is that always moral? No, but warfare isn't moral most of the time.
*shrug*
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:36 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:

Are Keesje und Dutchy the same person?

And you miss the point, as did your alter ego.
It is not about using written off equipment instead of not doing a deadly attack. The question was why the Tornado, not other assets. And in that environment it is definitely a valid concern to use the remaining life of a phased out fleet.
We are not talking morale.


Haha, must I dignify this with an answer, com'on.

It is a question of moral. What WIederling is implying that the Tornado is expendable and thus the crew is also expandable. That the RAF staff made a decision on the basis of what craft is ok to be shot down and not what is the best system to use in this specific circumstances with the best survivability for the crew. And that's why I call it a bullshit reason and I am being quite mild with this assessment.


It is a bit exhausting to discuss with you, as you fail to accept that your viewpoint isn't the only valid or even possible one. You need not to agree, but calling everything bullshit...not sure.

Military equipment is by definition expendable. And so is the crew. That's the deal if you sign into military.
Hence, it is a totally valid assumption that militaries don't risk their most expensive equipment (and crew) for low value targets.
Is that always moral? No, but warfare isn't moral most of the time.
*shrug*


Only explain my point of view, you don't have to agree with it. And I think my point of view is also the point of view whomever selected the Tornado to do this job. If you think otherwise, that is fine, I am not here to convince you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:12 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:

Are Keesje und Dutchy the same person?

And you miss the point, as did your alter ego.
It is not about using written off equipment instead of not doing a deadly attack. The question was why the Tornado, not other assets. And in that environment it is definitely a valid concern to use the remaining life of a phased out fleet.
We are not talking morale.


Haha, must I dignify this with an answer, com'on.

It is a question of moral. What WIederling is implying that the Tornado is expendable and thus the crew is also expandable. That the RAF staff made a decision on the basis of what craft is ok to be shot down and not what is the best system to use in this specific circumstances with the best survivability for the crew. And that's why I call it a bullshit reason and I am being quite mild with this assessment.


It is a bit exhausting to discuss with you, as you fail to accept that your viewpoint isn't the only valid or even possible one. You need not to agree, but calling everything bullshit...not sure.

Military equipment is by definition expendable. And so is the crew. That's the deal if you sign into military.
Hence, it is a totally valid assumption that militaries don't risk their most expensive equipment (and crew) for low value targets.
Is that always moral? No, but warfare isn't moral most of the time.
*shrug*

TBH a loss of an aircraft or, worse, its crew would have been a major loss of face in this conflict. The political gain of launching some 100 missiles (on pre-warned targets) would have been entirely lost. Additionally, the cost of training a single pilot exceeds $11 million (and the Tornado has 2), a price too high to pay even if a life by itself means nothing. Therefore I conclude that at least one of these reasons applied:
A) The likelyhood of encountering a threat to the aircraft was low, to the point where the choice of aircraft had no influence on it
B) More advanced aircraft were not available for the task
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And that's why I call it a bullshit reason and I am being quite mild with this assessment.


DIY bullshit?

Getting an old geezer like the Tornado shotdown doesn't look too bad.
Getting a fresh toy like the Taifune nixed looks real bad.
Especially if the whole attack was the dynamic equivalent of a Potemkin facade.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:48 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Haha, must I dignify this with an answer, com'on.

It is a question of moral. What WIederling is implying that the Tornado is expendable and thus the crew is also expandable. That the RAF staff made a decision on the basis of what craft is ok to be shot down and not what is the best system to use in this specific circumstances with the best survivability for the crew. And that's why I call it a bullshit reason and I am being quite mild with this assessment.


It is a bit exhausting to discuss with you, as you fail to accept that your viewpoint isn't the only valid or even possible one. You need not to agree, but calling everything bullshit...not sure.

Military equipment is by definition expendable. And so is the crew. That's the deal if you sign into military.
Hence, it is a totally valid assumption that militaries don't risk their most expensive equipment (and crew) for low value targets.
Is that always moral? No, but warfare isn't moral most of the time.
*shrug*

TBH a loss of an aircraft or, worse, its crew would have been a major loss of face in this conflict. The political gain of launching some 100 missiles (on pre-warned targets) would have been entirely lost. Additionally, the cost of training a single pilot exceeds $11 million (and the Tornado has 2), a price too high to pay even if a life by itself means nothing. Therefore I conclude that at least one of these reasons applied:
A) The likelyhood of encountering a threat to the aircraft was low, to the point where the choice of aircraft had no influence on it
B) More advanced aircraft were not available for the task


Oh, I fully agree. Hence, because of A) my feeling that it actually is a very good idea to use life of a soon to be retired fleet rather than anything fancy.
And apparently, with Storm Shadow the weapon of choice, no other delivery option was available anyway.

And still, crews and planes are expendable, as pretty much proven by the report of losses by A/C and theatre provided by Ozair above. It is part of the deal.

Anyway, for this PR show no resistance was expected, no risks involved.
I was just in the mood to tell Kutchy that he is unable to see that different perspectives exist beyond his own. Not sure why, boredom surely.
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:16 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
I was just in the mood to tell Kutchy that he is unable to see that different perspectives exist beyond his own. Not sure why, boredom surely.


You sure bored the crap out of me ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:27 am

If you think the attack was a PR stunt then by definition, it was immoral.

If on the other hand you think the attack was intended to deter future uses of chemical weapons then you would want to make sure all the crews returned safely. Deterrence of chemical weapons is a moral act so you want to do everything possible to ensure that the participants survived.

But the actions against Syria is not why Germany is considering new AC. The existing Tornados were to defend and deter Germany and NATO from aggression. Any new AC could only be justified for the same purpose. As I said upstream, the best argument against the new AC is that the mission is no longer necessary.

But if it is, Germany’s best interest is served by an AC that will complete as many sorties as possible because in a worst case scenario many will be required in an environment much more highly contested than was encountered on this mission.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:56 am

The best solution for Germany is to retire the Tornadoes and buy no replacement. The money can be spent on much more useful things in the society.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:28 am

Dutchy wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
I was just in the mood to tell Kutchy that he is unable to see that different perspectives exist beyond his own. Not sure why, boredom surely.


You sure bored the crap out of me ;-)


Don't worry, I bored the crap out of us both. But to be fair I couldn't possibly have known that the decision makers of the UK did consult your expertise before striking. What's next: Asking Spyhunter for strategic advise?
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:30 am

seahawk wrote:
The best solution for Germany is to retire the Tornadoes and buy no replacement. The money can be spent on much more useful things in the society.


As if a couple of billions would make any difference for Germany. Money is not scarce here...
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:33 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
I was just in the mood to tell Kutchy that he is unable to see that different perspectives exist beyond his own. Not sure why, boredom surely.


You sure bored the crap out of me ;-)


Don't worry, I bored the crap out of us both. But to be fair I couldn't possibly have known that the decision makers of the UK did consult your expertise before striking. What's next: Asking Spyhunter for strategic advise?


Oh snap, I don't know how to react to that, you have got me :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:37 am

Tell that to anybody living from ALG2 .
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:22 am

Planeflyer wrote:
If you think the attack was a PR stunt then by definition, it was immoral.

If on the other hand you think the attack was intended to deter future uses of chemical weapons then you would want to make sure all the crews returned safely. Deterrence of chemical weapons is a moral act so you want to do everything possible to ensure that the participants survived.



The attack was a propaganda stunt pure and simple, as you said this is immoral. Nobody knows who used the chemical weapons, but it is becoming pretty clear it wasn't Assad, a lot of the western media are now calling there respective govts out on this.
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:34 am

Kiwirob wrote:
The attack was a propaganda stunt pure and simple, as you said this is immoral. Nobody knows who used the chemical weapons, but it is becoming pretty clear it wasn't Assad, a lot of the western media are now calling there respective govts out on this.


They never wake up before the porcelain has been soundly trashed.
German news outlets ( Tagesthemen last night, newpaper SH:Z this morning ) are still in
Assad the Animal and think about the children mode. If you follow their lead
Assad and Putin must have an infant each for breakfast. Every day of the week.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:44 am

seahawk wrote:
The best solution for Germany is to retire the Tornadoes and buy no replacement. The money can be spent on much more useful things in the society.


The shrinking of the Mil budget has been completely sucked up by "Sozialausgaben" i.e direct alimentation of a largish group in society. .Going for a bit of Sakrileg: The GDR's "right to work" was a better solution to the problem than West Germanies "right to alimentation".
Murphy is an optimist
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:41 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And that's why I call it a bullshit reason and I am being quite mild with this assessment.


DIY bullshit?

Getting an old geezer like the Tornado shotdown doesn't look too bad.
Getting a fresh toy like the Taifune nixed looks real bad.
Especially if the whole attack was the dynamic equivalent of a Potemkin facade.

For Direktbetroffene who are really qualified to judge the attack, it was not a Potemkin facade:
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/20 ... ump-nr.cnn
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/14/poli ... index.html
Many lack the full picture imo. The crimes against humanity done with the conventional Syrian air force have not been mentioned often before.

Kiwirob wrote:
Nobody knows who used the chemical weapons, but it is becoming pretty clear it wasn't Assad

Maybe somebody else used them, but what counts is that the capabilities to produce and distribute these weapons have been damaged. It is simply not credible imo, that beside Assad somebody else has all the infrastructure to run chemical weapon operations in the country.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:08 am

Kiwirob wrote:
[The attack was a propaganda stunt pure and simple, as you said this is immoral. Nobody knows who used the chemical weapons, but it is becoming pretty clear it wasn't Assad, a lot of the western media are now calling there respective govts out on this.


Rob, enlighten us please, why has it become pretty clear it wasn't Assad while you say, rightfully so, that nobody knows for sure?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:02 am

It was barrels with chemicals dropped from a high flying helicopters.
This has been increasingly used by the Syrian Army over the last two years.
Last week was a real bad one. Or effective, depending on which site you stand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Syrian_Civil_War_barrel_bomb_attacks
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:50 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
[The attack was a propaganda stunt pure and simple, as you said this is immoral. Nobody knows who used the chemical weapons, but it is becoming pretty clear it wasn't Assad, a lot of the western media are now calling there respective govts out on this.


Rob, enlighten us please, why has it become pretty clear it wasn't Assad while you say, rightfully so, that nobody knows for sure?


Why would they need to? The govt forces have all but won the civil war, using chemical weapons at this point would be counter productive, all it would do is prolong the fighting, I can't see the govt wanting to do that. The only people a chemical attack would benefit are the (nearly defeated) opposition groups, it prolongs the war and gets them more headlines in the West which people like you lap up.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:51 am

keesje wrote:
It was barrels with chemicals dropped from a high flying helicopters.
This has been increasingly used by the Syrian Army over the last two years.
Last week was a real bad one. Or effective, depending on which site you stand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Syrian_Civil_War_barrel_bomb_attacks


Jesus if that's all you can use as proof is a Wikipedia article you should quit this forum ASAP.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:16 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
[The attack was a propaganda stunt pure and simple, as you said this is immoral. Nobody knows who used the chemical weapons, but it is becoming pretty clear it wasn't Assad, a lot of the western media are now calling there respective govts out on this.


Rob, enlighten us please, why has it become pretty clear it wasn't Assad while you say, rightfully so, that nobody knows for sure?


Why would they need to? The govt forces have all but won the civil war, using chemical weapons at this point would be counter productive, all it would do is prolong the fighting, I can't see the govt wanting to do that. The only people a chemical attack would benefit are the (nearly defeated) opposition groups, it prolongs the war and gets them more headlines in the West which people like you lap up.


Alright, thanks for the clarification: "pretty clear" is your interpretation. So it means nothing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:01 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
keesje wrote:
It was barrels with chemicals dropped from a high flying helicopters.
This has been increasingly used by the Syrian Army over the last two years.
Last week was a real bad one. Or effective, depending on which site you stand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Syrian_Civil_War_barrel_bomb_attacks


Jesus if that's all you can use as proof is a Wikipedia article you should quit this forum ASAP.


Kiwirob, I think you are totally out of line here. Apparently you didn't even check the dozens of international sources/links on the bottom of the page. Hundreds reports over the last 4 years including BBC, The Washington Times, ABC News, CNN, The Jerusalem Post., Aljazeera.com, The Times, Associated Press? The blunt dial must be strong.

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/Comment/2018/2/28/Obscuring-Assads-genocide-in-Syria

The Assad regime is guilty as hell, the international community is hampered by the lack of good alternatives, the battle on Isis and the risks of further hurting the local populations. Who are you hurting bombing a bridge, railway or chemical industry.. We are housing hundreds of thousands refugee families already.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:56 pm

Comments from a US commander regards 5th gen AC in contested environments:

Thanks to its unique fifth-generation capabilities, the F-22 was the only airframe suited to operate inside the Syrian integrated air defense systems, offering an option with which to neutralize [Integrated Air Defense System] threats to our forces and installations in the

region, and provide protective air support for U.S., coalition and partners on the ground in Syria," Graff said.

link to complete article:

https://www.military.com/defensetech/20 ... ssion.html
 
estorilm
Posts: 284
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:21 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Comments from a US commander regards 5th gen AC in contested environments:

Thanks to its unique fifth-generation capabilities, the F-22 was the only airframe suited to operate inside the Syrian integrated air defense systems, offering an option with which to neutralize [Integrated Air Defense System] threats to our forces and installations in the

region, and provide protective air support for U.S., coalition and partners on the ground in Syria," Graff said.

link to complete article:

https://www.military.com/defensetech/20 ... ssion.html

Very interesting! Nice to see the Raptor in action, especially in hostile territory / defended airspace.

What "ground support" role was it really providing though? :?
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:24 pm

keesje wrote:


barrel bombs are a poor mans BLU* thingies.
nice tacky alliteration ( like those dumb playing cards with invented cuss names for
select iraqi persons ) but that about is it in the "being special" domain.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:21 pm

Good question, other than to provide recon and top cover I have no idea how an F22 could support ground forces.

Chemical weapons have been said to be a poor man's nukes. Does that make the use of them moral? I think the whole point of the attack has been to send a message that the use of chemical weapons will not be tolerated.

The Assad's have history of using chemcial weapns to intimidate the Syrian populace.
 
11Bravo
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:24 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Good question, other than to provide recon and top cover I have no idea how an F22 could support ground forces.


How about with GBU-32 JDAM or GBU-39 SDB ? The F-22 is not a dedicated GS aircraft, but a couple of well placed 1,000 lb JDAM could be very supportive.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:39 pm

Good info, forgot about the ground attack capabilities.
 
columba
Topic Author
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:28 am

Maybe they could offer this to Germany as well, sounds interesting:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKBN1HR0MM
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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keesje
Posts: 11313
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:21 pm

columba wrote:
Maybe they could offer this to Germany as well, sounds interesting:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKBN1HR0MM


I'm under the impression importing is not really on the agenda. Maybe exporting later on.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:09 pm

Germany needs a ground attack aircraft that can penetrate contested airspace.

I think the aircraft being considered for japan is more designed for the air superiority role and has got to be 10 years out.

Germany might as well wait the 20( really 30) that the so called FCS program will require.

After all Germany knows full well that there are plenty of F22 and F35 w/i the NATO command structure if the worst case happens. Why spend the money when others already have?
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:00 am

So most recent news is that Airbus offers an evolved Eurofighter to replace the Tornado.
Airbus seems to have handed in an official offer.
( small article in today's regional News paper here : SH:Z )
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:04 am

WIederling wrote:
So most recent news is that Airbus offers an evolved Eurofighter to replace the Tornado.
Airbus seems to have handed in an official offer.
( small article in today's regional News paper here : SH:Z )

Makes sense and what we've been expecting for awhile now. Will be interesting to here what the Luftwaffe thinks of the offer...
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:56 am

I'm not sure the below article is quite accurate that this berlin Air Show is the last chance for the F-35 in Europe but nonetheless a reasonable summary of the issues to date.

Berlin Air Show last chance for Lockheed’s F-35 in Europe

Real-life dogfights between combat aircraft at close range may be obsolete in this age of fighter jets, but Europe’s Eurofighter and the F-35 from the US are set to square off this week at the Berlin Air Show, at least on the ground.

The presentation of the two fighter jets may be the last chance for Lockheed-Martin’s F-35 to challenge the European preference for a souped-up Eurofighter as an interim solution until the next-generation jet is available from domestic aerospace companies.

A firm decision is urgent because the Tornado jets of the Luftwaffe, the German Air Force, capable of carrying nuclear weapons in NATO military actions, are due to be phased out by 2025. The Future Combat Air System (FCAS) being developed by Airbus and Dassault won’t be ready for deployment before 2040. Many European experts, including the German and French governments, want the Eurofighter, adapted to carry nuclear weapons, as an interim solution to favor European makers and to secure the long-term development of aerospace technology.

“As soon as Germany becomes an F-35 nation, any cooperation with France on combat aircraft dies,” Dirk Hoke, head of Airbus’s military division, recently told “Die Welt” in a widely quoted remark.

The problem is that the F-35 is already the next generation, a fifth-generation plane with state-of-the-art capabilities far in excess of what the Eurofighter can do. Luftwaffe chief Karl Müllner declared his preference for the F-35 last fall, in part because its longer range is better at keeping pilots out of harm’s way. This outspoken support may have cost him his job. As soon as Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen was confirmed in office in the new coalition, she dispatched the lieutenant general into early retirement.

This overtly political move seems to make a decision in favor of the Eurofighter a foregone conclusion. But it comes amid a fierce transatlantic debate about Germany’s military preparedness and its willingness to carry its own weight within NATO. US President Donald Trump has been particularly vocal in criticizing Germany for what he sees as free-riding on the back of American defense spending.

The new coalition in Berlin, in fact, seems to be moving toward a Europe-first or even a Germany-first policy in military procurement, for all the official criticism of Mr. Trump’s America-first emphasis. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier likewise believes Europe must keep its hand in with military technology and not leave the field to China and the United States. “I am in favor of maintaining European capabilities, for economic and strategic power,” he said in an interview with Handelsblatt.

Mr. Trappier even put in a good word for the Eurofighter, a direct competitor with Dassault’s Rafale. “We are not a candidate to replace Germany’s Tornado with Rafale,” he said. “I don’t see why the Eurofighter couldn’t.” Dassault has its eye on the FCAS, which it is developing in partnership with Airbus. The French firm has even made the case for taking the lead in that project, given its long history in combat aircraft.

There is one condition that must be met, however. Both governments and parliaments must agree from the outgo just what the terms are for exporting the next-generation jet. The domestic market alone is too small for a project of this scale, and the companies can’t afford to spend 10 to 15 years working on it and then be told there will be restrictions on exports, Mr. Trappier said. France is eager to export, but German restrictions could block them unless there is a clear agreement ahead of time.

Of course, by then, most countries may be flying the F-35, or even its successor. In view of China’s military posturing, Lockheed-Martin has already announced accelerated development of a sixth-generation combat aircraft, the Next Generation Air Dominance System. The new plane will have hypersonic capability to match what China is expected to deploy sometime next decade.

By 2040, there may not be a big export market for Europe’s next-generation fighter. Whatever German and French politicians decide in Berlin this week, in short, Europe may already have missed the boat on military aviation technology. Some experts are urging Europe instead to focus on more realistic if less glamorous projects, such as naval supply ships or tactical drones.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/compani ... ope-915425

The below paragraph struck me the most though,

There is one condition that must be met, however. Both governments and parliaments must agree from the outgo just what the terms are for exporting the next-generation jet. The domestic market alone is too small for a project of this scale, and the companies can’t afford to spend 10 to 15 years working on it and then be told there will be restrictions on exports, Mr. Trappier said. France is eager to export, but German restrictions could block them unless there is a clear agreement ahead of time.


Already this feels like repeating the mistakes of the past. Both the Eurofighter and especially the Rafale were sold domestically on the potential for exports and both have so far fell well short of even the minimum expectations. As the article alludes to afterwards, much of the market may already have been sold out or the landscape will have changed enough that by the time a new European fighter of the size and shape initially suggested arrives it won't be an ideal or preferred solution anyway...
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:42 pm

Airbus and Dassault united
Airbus und Dassault bündelten ihre Kräfte zur Entwicklung und Produktion des europäischen Kampfflugzeugs der Zukunft, dem "Future Air Combat System", hieß es in einer Erklärung der Unternehmen anlässlich der ILA. "Wir sagen unseren Verteidigungsministerinnen, unseren politisch Verantwortlichen: Wir sind bereit", sagte Dassault-Chef Eric Trappier bei einer gemeinsamen Pressekonferenz mit Airbus-Rüstungsvorstand Dirk Hoke.
The two companies released a joint press statement at the International Aerospace Exhibition happening right now in Berlin. They have agreed upon a possible joint venture for the FCAS which will enter serial production around 2040. The agreement also covers UAV's and communication systems. Both the CEO of Dassault and the CEO of Airbus Defense and Space were present, wishing to send a clear message to their respective ministers of defense, who will, in turn, visit the air show together tomorrow.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 483
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:51 pm

Ozair wrote:
As the article alludes to afterwards, much of the market may already have been sold out or the landscape will have changed enough that by the time a new European fighter of the size and shape initially suggested arrives it won't be an ideal or preferred solution anyway...

Frankly, I agree that EIS 2040 is too far away. They should aim for 2030 at the latest to make sure that it is there by 2035 at the latest. There is so much that can change in 22 years, especially now that China knows how to build jets & rockets and the US are no longer bound by the F-35. It may end up like the PAK-FA / Su-57, launched officially 2001, first flight 2010, still in prototype stage 17 years later.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:57 pm

FCAS would benefit greatly from Japan joining. Germany and France alone won´t make it work. Simply because the German parliament will never agree on the export rules Dassault needs for the project to make economic sense.
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:29 pm

Somewhere up the thread I suggested an interim solution might be viable as part of FCAS. F35 or Rafale which is are more optimized for ground attack / IDS than the "interceptor with bombs" Typhoon. It already has fully integrated 2 man cockpit, conformal tanks, combat proven Storm Shadow capability and mature AESA functionalities. Better than rebuilding the Typhoon.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
bigjku
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:32 pm

It will be interesting to see what Airbus and Dassault would actually pitch. A fully stealthy fighter with internal carriage would require an engine that is probably not just an upscale EJ or M88 unless you are going to accept some performance compromises in the process.

A new engine will cost several billions alone. Then you have the question of who builds it. RR has the most experience in high end military engines on the continent but if it’s an EU show they may or may not be a player.

Should be interesting.
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:28 pm

bigjku wrote:
It will be interesting to see what Airbus and Dassault would actually pitch. A fully stealthy fighter with internal carriage would require an engine that is probably not just an upscale EJ or M88 unless you are going to accept some performance compromises in the process.

"Significant growth potential" :-)
http://www.mtu.de/fileadmin/EN/2_Engine ... _EJ200.pdf
( whatever that means.)

A new engine will cost several billions alone. Then you have the question of who builds it. RR has the most experience in high end military engines on the continent but if it’s an EU show they may or may not be a player.

Should be interesting.


I'd expect a special purpose corporate construct like on the Tornado and Taifun (and A400M ) engines.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
Posts: 2626
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:39 pm

bigjku wrote:
It will be interesting to see what Airbus and Dassault would actually pitch. A fully stealthy fighter with internal carriage would require an engine that is probably not just an upscale EJ or M88 unless you are going to accept some performance compromises in the process.

The EJ certainly has the growth potential for an additional 20% thrust as has been discussed previously and essentially offered since the early 2000s. No one has taken up that option though.

bigjku wrote:
A new engine will cost several billions alone. Then you have the question of who builds it. RR has the most experience in high end military engines on the continent but if it’s an EU show they may or may not be a player.

Should be interesting.

Several billion and then several billion more... probably in the order of 7-10 billion. I don't think RR has to get involved but the issue will be industrial. If anyone thinks France won't push for a fully French engine then they are kidding themselves. All parties appear to be happy now but once the actual details begin to be discussed there will be clear contention.

keesje wrote:
Somewhere up the thread I suggested an interim solution might be viable as part of FCAS. F35 or Rafale which is are more optimized for ground attack / IDS than the "interceptor with bombs" Typhoon. It already has fully integrated 2 man cockpit, conformal tanks, combat proven Storm Shadow capability and mature AESA functionalities. Better than rebuilding the Typhoon.

Keesje, as we keep telling you, the issue is not about capability, if that were the case the F-35 wins the order hands down. The issue is Germany Industrial participation and that is the sole reason the German Government is pursuing an evolved Eurofighter.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:12 pm

And here we go, a sign the engine fun and games has already begun...

MTU reveals next-generation fighter engine

MTU Aero Engines has revealed a new future powerplant for combat aircraft to be ready for fielding in the early 2030s.

The manufacturer disclosed the Next European Fighter Engine (NEFE) in a product brochure distributed at the ILA Airshow in Berlin in late April.

As noted in the brochure, the NEFE is being developed alongside the New Fighter (NF) combat aircraft and the Next-Generation Weapon System (NGWS) as part of a wider drive to preserve European defence industrial sovereignty under the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) project.

To meet the planned 2040 in-service date of the future combat aircraft being developed by Airbus and Dassault, MTU is already engaged in defining the aircraft’s twin-engined powerplant under the direction of the German Federal Ministry of Defence (BMVg).

In developing the NEFE, MTU has to meet a number of exacting requirements that include improved thrust and lower fuel consumption over current powerplants; low development and manufacturing costs; efficient maintenance and long projectable maintenance intervals; high electrical power extraction for aircraft systems; as well as maximum robustness and reliability.

“For the next-generation engine, MTU has identified various technologies of the future, which it wants to develop further,” the brochure stated, adding that these include multi-disciplinary methods and simulations in the design of engine concepts and in the components. Additive manufacturing and the use of ‘bionic design’ also open up new possibilities, MTU said. Furthermore, new designs and new materials, such as ceramic matrix composites, reduce the weight while enabling higher engine temperatures for more power delivery.

http://www.janes.com/article/79573/ila- ... ter-engine

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