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seahawk
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:01 pm

I would say most Germans, say "do not spent much on the armed forces, as conventional conflict is unlikely". They would not spent one Euroe more if US troops would leave Europe.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:10 pm

Agree but this is not the right question.
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:05 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
German policy is clear and well supported by many and maybe even most Germans; let’s not spend our money as long as the USA will.


This is more or less wrong.
With the up front example of the US spending to no end on allegedly defense outlay and creating and then aggravating a long line of global problems spending more on defense appears to be counter intuitive. ( Einstein: repeating the same action over and over and expecting a diifferent outcome is madness )

Planeflyer wrote:
German recalcitrance on defense spending is a jus one small example of what I mean by competing interests that would lead to the next Europeon wide war.


Just like in the US there is a growing group of people with "Großmannssucht" in Europe. They forgot what war is like.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:47 pm

WIederling wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
German policy is clear and well supported by many and maybe even most Germans; let’s not spend our money as long as the USA will.


This is more or less wrong.
With the up front example of the US spending to no end on allegedly defense outlay and creating and then aggravating a long line of global problems spending more on defense appears to be counter intuitive. ( Einstein: repeating the same action over and over and expecting a diifferent outcome is madness )

Planeflyer wrote:
German recalcitrance on

defense spending is a jus one small example of what I mean by competing interests that would lead to the next Europeon wide war.


Just like in the US there is a growing group of people with "Großmannssucht" in Europe. They forgot what war is like.


It is not arguable that German Defence Forces are anywhere near prepared for even a minuscule contest.

Now surely it is right and good to ask is US policy that is optimized around preparedness the correct course but I think the last 70 years especially in light of the previous 1000 years fairly answers the question.

Just look at all the places most impacted by us policy now vs 1945 and ask yourself the Reagan question; are you better off now vs then?

Back to the topic; the F35 is the definition of deterrence. Bad guys don’t attack your house when you can attack their leadership assets.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:55 pm

An interesting looking concept, especially the images in the video.

Watch France and Germany's next generation stealth fighter, a two-engine jet that looks like it will outclass the F-35

The French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation recently published a video that gives a glimpse into what the reported Franco-German fifth generation aircraft might look like.

France and Germany announced in July 2017 that they would be joining forces to build an advanced “European” fighter to replace Dassault Aviation’s Rafales and Germany’s Eurofighter Typhoons, The War Zone reported last summer.

“As expected, 2-engine deltawing,” Sim Tack, chief military analyst at Force Analysis and Global Fellow at Strator, tweeted on Thursday about the new Dassault Aviation video, in which the conceptual fighter appears around minute 3:10.

“I think if they can pull it all off, this seems a legitimate candidate for a highly capable competitor to the F-35 and Su-57,” Tack messaged Business Insider.

Unlike the F-35, Dassault’s next generation fighter will supposedly have two engines and therefore much more thrust, Tack said.

“In terms of capabilities, the focus will probably be on stealth technology, and integration with information systems,” Tack said, such as “sharing information between aircraft, possibly commanding drones, etc.”

Tack added that it’s up for debate whether this aircraft would be a fifth or sixth generation fighter.

The Dassault fighter also doesn’t appear to have a vertical stabilizer, which will cut down on radar reflections from the side, giving it greater stealth capabilities, Tack said.

In any event, the next generation fighter will probably be under development for the next 20 years, Tack said.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/watc ... ?r=US&IR=T

Image
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:51 pm

Europe’s best move would be to develop a 6 th gen ac. It’ll be 10-20 billion more and 5-10 years later but it will have a much better shot of success.

Better yet would be a cooperative effort w the USA on 6 th gen.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:49 am

Ozair wrote:
An interesting looking concept, especially the images in the video.

Watch France and Germany's next generation stealth fighter, a two-engine jet that looks like it will outclass the F-35

The French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation recently published a video that gives a glimpse into what the reported Franco-German fifth generation aircraft might look like.

France and Germany announced in July 2017 that they would be joining forces to build an advanced “European” fighter to replace Dassault Aviation’s Rafales and Germany’s Eurofighter Typhoons, The War Zone reported last summer.

“As expected, 2-engine deltawing,” Sim Tack, chief military analyst at Force Analysis and Global Fellow at Strator, tweeted on Thursday about the new Dassault Aviation video, in which the conceptual fighter appears around minute 3:10.

“I think if they can pull it all off, this seems a legitimate candidate for a highly capable competitor to the F-35 and Su-57,” Tack messaged Business Insider.

Unlike the F-35, Dassault’s next generation fighter will supposedly have two engines and therefore much more thrust, Tack said.

“In terms of capabilities, the focus will probably be on stealth technology, and integration with information systems,” Tack said, such as “sharing information between aircraft, possibly commanding drones, etc.”

Tack added that it’s up for debate whether this aircraft would be a fifth or sixth generation fighter.

The Dassault fighter also doesn’t appear to have a vertical stabilizer, which will cut down on radar reflections from the side, giving it greater stealth capabilities, Tack said.

In any event, the next generation fighter will probably be under development for the next 20 years, Tack said.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/watc ... ?r=US&IR=T

Image


Very interesting design. Will be interesting to see how much different the final design will be. I wonder if this will become the Airbus FCAS too.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:40 am

Slug71 wrote:

Very interesting design. Will be interesting to see how much different the final design will be. I wonder if this will become the Airbus FCAS too.

Well France notionally have been given the lead on the joint effort so that means Airbus toes the line on what Dassault will want to do but I think that level of detail and integration hasn't yet been fully agreed.
I expect an final design to be more traditional than the concept shown but there is approx 15 years between now and what may evolve from the joint venture so there could be some major changes in how aircraft operate. Clearly though even Dassault continue to believe that a future platform will have to be designed around stealth shaping characteristics if these concepts are anything to go by.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:54 am

Ozair wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

Very interesting design. Will be interesting to see how much different the final design will be. I wonder if this will become the Airbus FCAS too.

Well France notionally have been given the lead on the joint effort so that means Airbus toes the line on what Dassault will want to do but I think that level of detail and integration hasn't yet been fully agreed.
I expect an final design to be more traditional than the concept shown but there is approx 15 years between now and what may evolve from the joint venture so there could be some major changes in how aircraft operate. Clearly though even Dassault continue to believe that a future platform will have to be designed around stealth shaping characteristics if these concepts are anything to go by.


In that case it probably will be the same thing. I don't really see the justification for a separate Airbus/Dassault project TBH. And the SAAB/BAE project should be well under way too.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:18 am

Holy smokes, imagine the ridicule Dassault will be hearing from certain members over a stealth design.
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:45 am

French politics as we have seen over the last 40 years.. French company presenting it self as European (funding.), working towards being based in France and the french government coming in with Billion to secure leadership for the french participation. This video totally fits in there. I'm 99% sire this video presentation isn't coordinated and comes as a surprize for the German site. It is chess.

What's interesting the germans have learned their lessons, will probably invest most & won't get along. Meanwhile they don't want to corrupt the project by expensive, time wasting infights. Expect some strong signals / innitiative from that site soon. The french feel & launch this pre emptive..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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glideslope
Posts: 1491
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Re: RE: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:33 pm

Ozair wrote:
Balerit wrote:

5th generation is a Lockheed marketing term and as far as I'm concerned the Gripen is even better than the F35 or F22, here is an interesting article:

The top tier air forces of the world disagree.

As for the article, it was rightly derided when Bill published it... There are multiple errors that some research and understanding of modern fighter technology could easily clarify.


Agreed. F-35 has zero chance with Germany.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Noray
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:05 am

keesje wrote:
French politics as we have seen over the last 40 years.. French company presenting it self as European (funding.), working towards being based in France and the french government coming in with Billion to secure leadership for the french participation. This video totally fits in there. I'm 99% sire this video presentation isn't coordinated and comes as a surprize for the German site. It is chess.

What's interesting the germans have learned their lessons, will probably invest most & won't get along. Meanwhile they don't want to corrupt the project by expensive, time wasting infights. Expect some strong signals / innitiative from that site soon. The french feel & launch this pre emptive..

This could be a nice story if Germany and France hadn't already agreed that France will be the lead nation. Germany will lead other projects. This is a lesson from the A400M history.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ghter.html
 
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Slug71
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:59 am

Noray wrote:
keesje wrote:
French politics as we have seen over the last 40 years.. French company presenting it self as European (funding.), working towards being based in France and the french government coming in with Billion to secure leadership for the french participation. This video totally fits in there. I'm 99% sire this video presentation isn't coordinated and comes as a surprize for the German site. It is chess.

What's interesting the germans have learned their lessons, will probably invest most & won't get along. Meanwhile they don't want to corrupt the project by expensive, time wasting infights. Expect some strong signals / innitiative from that site soon. The french feel & launch this pre emptive..

This could be a nice story if Germany and France hadn't already agreed that France will be the lead nation. Germany will lead other projects. This is a lesson from the A400M history.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ghter.html


But, as noted by Airbus DS CEO Dirk Hoke, “The schedule is tight, so we need to start working together immediately by defining a joint roadmap on how best to meet the requirements and timelines to be set by the two nations. It is therefore of key importance that France and Germany launch an initial joint study this year to address this task” -- which also is a reminder to the two governments to provide initial funding.

This schedule is indeed tight, as Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier also observed: “Both companies fully intend to work together in the most pragmatic and efficient manner. Our joint roadmap will include proposals to develop demonstrators for the FCAS programme [from] 2025.


Which is why I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for Germany to replace the Tornados with Rafales.
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:28 pm

It hadn't this latest statements. Positive it seems simplicity, focus. It seems lessons have been learned from previous projects.
2040 is very far away..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8142
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:43 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Europe’s best move would be to develop a 6 th gen ac. It’ll be 10-20 billion more and 5-10 years later but it will have a much better shot of success.


the no-vertical stabilizer bit is pretty gen. 6ish

Better yet would be a cooperative effort w the USA on 6 th gen.


Not ever going to happen. Needing a US export licence for the Tornado because of US components was too much a pain during its export efforts. Other countries would do the same if they could, of course, but no EU made combat aircraft with export potential will depend on components that need an US export license. The Meteor and IRIS-T Missiles exist in part to enable offering Typhoons without AIM-120/Sidewinder export licences getting in the way.

On top of that, all of NATO flying a single type of aircraft, and effectively depending on it to work, is probably not a very good idea either.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:57 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Europe’s best move would be to develop a 6 th gen ac. It’ll be 10-20 billion more and 5-10 years later but it will have a much better shot of success.


the no-vertical stabilizer bit is pretty gen. 6ish

Better yet would be a cooperative effort w the USA on 6 th gen.


Not ever going to happen. Needing a US export licence for the Tornado because of US components was too much a pain during its export efforts. Other countries would do the same if they could, of course, but no EU made combat aircraft with export potential will depend on components that need an US export license. The Meteor and IRIS-T Missiles exist in part to enable offering Typhoons without AIM-120/Sidewinder export licences getting in the way.

On top of that, all of NATO flying a single type of aircraft, and effectively depending on it to work, is probably not a very good idea either.

best regards
Thomas


Good points and I agree it won’t be easy but based on the development costs involved I think it’s worth the effort.

Re the export isssue, I think the market size if we just consider the us and Europe may be large enough that exports are not required and based on the technology not advisable.

Anyway, how many Typhoons have been exported?

And have these few sales significantly offset development costs?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:30 am

Planeflyer wrote:
And have these few sales significantly offset development costs?


Probably not. But even with military spending being a fairly bad job creator, spending twice the money in Europe is about as good as spending half that abroad. And you get to have all the know how, source code and so on.
So in the end a 50:50 joint venture would cost the same, economically speaking, as doing a 100% own project, if you have a complete industry. We do, we spend a lot of money building it, why give that up?

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:22 am

Because with every generation you are falling further and further behind.

Europe has and always will be a ripe target. Yes , today there are no immediate threats but the same could be said many times in the past and yet major wars came from seemingly nowhere.

Full command of the air is the single best investment for it is fantastic for defense but doesn’t spook adversaries as it does not hold ground.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8142
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:32 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Because with every generation you are falling further and further behind.


I see no evidence for that. European nations decided against stealth in the 80`s, its not as if companies in Europe didn´t know how to build stealthy aircraft, they did build enough up to full scale to get a feel for Radar return, like the MBB Lampyridae, rumor has it that was killed by US pressure, or BAE Systems Replica. We know, at least for Germany as the UK is more secretive, from parliamentary documents that stealth testing and prototyping was kept up throughout. And according to RANDs "U.S. Still Leads the World in Science and Technology; Nation Benefits From Foreign Scientists, Engineers" Study, the leading edge skill is available too. Top Material Scientists are available too: http://archive.sciencewatch.com/dr/sci/ ... ci2000-10/

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Slug71
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:35 am

Ozair wrote:
An interesting looking concept, especially the images in the video.

Watch France and Germany's next generation stealth fighter, a two-engine jet that looks like it will outclass the F-35

The French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation recently published a video that gives a glimpse into what the reported Franco-German fifth generation aircraft might look like.

France and Germany announced in July 2017 that they would be joining forces to build an advanced “European” fighter to replace Dassault Aviation’s Rafales and Germany’s Eurofighter Typhoons, The War Zone reported last summer.

“As expected, 2-engine deltawing,” Sim Tack, chief military analyst at Force Analysis and Global Fellow at Strator, tweeted on Thursday about the new Dassault Aviation video, in which the conceptual fighter appears around minute 3:10.

“I think if they can pull it all off, this seems a legitimate candidate for a highly capable competitor to the F-35 and Su-57,” Tack messaged Business Insider.

Unlike the F-35, Dassault’s next generation fighter will supposedly have two engines and therefore much more thrust, Tack said.

“In terms of capabilities, the focus will probably be on stealth technology, and integration with information systems,” Tack said, such as “sharing information between aircraft, possibly commanding drones, etc.”

Tack added that it’s up for debate whether this aircraft would be a fifth or sixth generation fighter.

The Dassault fighter also doesn’t appear to have a vertical stabilizer, which will cut down on radar reflections from the side, giving it greater stealth capabilities, Tack said.

In any event, the next generation fighter will probably be under development for the next 20 years, Tack said.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/watc ... ?r=US&IR=T

Image


Small LEVCONS forward of the intakes?
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 6936
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Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:57 am

It is an artistic concept.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1002
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany Considers Tornado Replacement

Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:40 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Because with every generation you are falling further and further behind.


I see no evidence for that. European nations decided against stealth in the 80`s, its not as if companies in Europe didn´t know how to build stealthy aircraft, they did build enough up to full scale to get a feel for Radar return, like the MBB Lampyridae, rumor has it that was killed by US pressure, or BAE Systems Replica. We know, at least for Germany as the UK is more secretive, from parliamentary documents that stealth testing and prototyping was kept up throughout. And according to RANDs "U.S. Still Leads the World in Science and Technology; Nation Benefits From Foreign Scientists, Engineers" Study, the leading edge skill is available too. Top Material Scientists are available too: http://archive.sciencewatch.com/dr/sci/ ... ci2000-10/

best regards
Thomas


Sounds awfully weird.

And for whatever the reason Europe won’t have an AC capable of operating in contested environments for at least 25 years.

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