SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

SeJoWa · Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:26 pm

Erm, this is about flinging cars, not flying them. What will the alien archaeologists think?

Maybe "some of the humans' first space vehicles were spectacularly maladapted to their task, and it's very probable the well known and mystifying red one was meant as an offering to their gods".

I'm deeply troubled.

KarelXWB · Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:03 pm

And here is the Falcon Heavy payload:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdA94kVgQhU/

zanl188 · Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:17 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The picture of the Roadster on top of the launch adapter is awesome. Where did you find that?

Reddit and instagram. Supposedly leaked. Better and official photos came out on Musks Instagram account about an hour ago.

JetBuddy · Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:46 pm

That is one spacious fairing. He could stack five roadsters in there if he wanted to

Thanks for info zanl188.

Tugger · Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:59 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
That is one spacious fairing.

You know, that makes me wonder... this would be an excellent fairing to actually test a return option on. Basically they could strap anything they want into it to return the fairing.

Tugg

KarelXWB · Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:25 pm

Another view that shows a bit more perspective:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdA94kVgQhU/

KarelXWB · Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:30 pm

Tugger wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
That is one spacious fairing.

You know, that makes me wonder... this would be an excellent fairing to actually test a return option on. Basically they could strap anything they want into it to return the fairing.

Tugg

Meanwhile the recovery vessel has been spotted. SpaceX will span a big net on those 4 arms and try to catch the first half of the fairing.

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-fairin ... very-boat/

aviationaware · Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:42 pm

Archaic idea, but if it works to save money, what the hell!

ZaphodHarkonnen · Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:47 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The picture of the Roadster on top of the launch adapter is awesome. Where did you find that?

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/944329692898664448

Tugger · Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:53 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Tugger wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
That is one spacious fairing.

You know, that makes me wonder... this would be an excellent fairing to actually test a return option on. Basically they could strap anything they want into it to return the fairing.

Tugg

Meanwhile the recovery vessel has been spotted. SpaceX will span a big net on those 4 arms and try to catch the first half of the fairing.

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-fairin ... very-boat/

Yes, but that ship is currently off the coast of California, perhaps they are going to try and catch tonight's fairing?

My comment was thinking about doing with the Falcon Heavy but I have no idea how far along they are with their plans.

Tugg

KarelXWB · Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:00 pm

Tugger wrote:
Yes, but that ship is currently off the coast of California, perhaps they are going to try and catch tonight's fairing?

You are right: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/12 ... -4-launch/

Friday’s launch is likely to see another attempt to recover the rocket’s payload fairing. A recovery ship, named Mr Steven, left the port of Los Angeles on Thursday bound for Guadalupe Island, off the coast of Mexico.

This will place the ship, which has been fitted with four large arms – possibly intended to hold a net for capturing the fairing, downrange at the time of launch. The fairing, which protects satellites from aerodynamic forces as the rocket ascends through the atmosphere, is the next part of the Falcon 9 that SpaceX aims to make reusable.

JetBuddy · Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:47 am

That ship design is interesting. One thing that puzzles me is the span of the net. It doesn't seem to cover the bridge of the ship. What if the fairing misses by 10 meters and hits the bridge?

flyingturtle · Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:41 am

Oh, wow. And I didn't know that they use a Roomba to clean the drone ships.

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-fairin ... very-boat/

According to marinetraffic.com, the Mr. Steven is currently SW of San Clemente Island.

David

moo · Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:52 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Oh, wow. And I didn't know that they use a Roomba to clean the drone ships.

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-fairin ... very-boat/

According to marinetraffic.com, the Mr. Steven is currently SW of San Clemente Island.

David

They don't - they are referring to the big white thing on the dock to the right of the crane. It's designed to manoeuvre under the landed booster and clamp it down so it doesn't move.

Planeflyer · Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:52 am

Re the Space X launch tonight, My son was out at a shopping center, saw it live and observed more than a few people had a War of the Worlds moment.

Tugger · Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:55 am

Dang and I missed it! Ah well, another successful launch!

Tugg

zanl188 · Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:30 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Re the Space X launch tonight, My son was out at a shopping center, saw it live and observed more than a few people had a War of the Worlds moment.

Some spectacular footage coming out of Southern California tonight.

This one shows staging, boost back burn, AND, apparently, thruster firings from a jettisoned fairing.

https://youtu.be/ioG7PaQkDog

Tugger · Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:02 am

zanl188 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Re the Space X launch tonight, My son was out at a shopping center, saw it live and observed more than a few people had a War of the Worlds moment.

Some spectacular footage coming out of Southern California tonight.

This one shows staging, boost back burn, AND, apparently, thruster firings from a jettisoned fairing.

https://youtu.be/ioG7PaQkDog

Wow, that is awesome! It appears it flew over the metropolitan area? Or is that just an illusion due to its height and trajectory?

Also where did they end up putting the booster, into the ocean I am sure of course but just curious. I wonder if they stood the (crash)landing? :scratchchin:

Tugg

moo · Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:35 am

Tugger wrote:
Wow, that is awesome! It appears it flew over the metropolitan area? Or is that just an illusion due to its height and trajectory?

From Vandenberg, they fly south straight over the pacific ocean - it never gets close to going over a populated area, as the only land it actually crosses at any point is the Vandenberg range.

Tugger wrote:
Also where did they end up putting the booster, into the ocean I am sure of course but just curious. I wonder if they stood the (crash)landing?

Tugg

Normally they are just allowed to impact the ocean downrange on a ballistic but uncontrolled reentry, but it would seem that for this launch they did a controlled reentry, hover and ditch just as they did in the run ups to the first drone ship landings.

No idea why, they must have been testing something.

GST · Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:51 am

More pictures, link will only work for those on Facebook but I guess SpaceX will have posted them elsewhere too.

KarelXWB · Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:20 am

Aliens everywhere

At least 130 people called 911 in just one part of Los Angeles County after seeing SpaceX rocket, prompting talk of aliens and North Korea

parapente · Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:37 am

Thank you Moo for your comments really valuable.
So they need to shed weight as soon as is practical.
On a related subject I read how the falcon engines are great at producing thrust in the atmosphere lifting heavy loads to LOA.
But pretty terrible ( due to type of fuel) when operating In a vacuum.
At the same time I noted that the US Military is funding Spacex to develop a new second stage for th F9's/F Heavy using a variant of their new engine the Raptor.Now This engine apparently uses a fuel that is far more efficient in a vacuum.
If so (no idea on timing of this development).A Falcon Heavu could have its payload abilities greatly enhanced with the use of a Raptor second stage.
Obviously one imagines that US Military have some heavy stuff they would like to put up in the future.But for early Moom and Mars missions such a second stage could be really useful -no?
I say this as there is a huge leap between the F9's and the BFR.They will need to practice a lot of things before they start shuttling off to Mars.
Such a (FH/Raptor) could be an ideal vehicle I would have thought.

moo · Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:18 am

parapente wrote:
Thank you Moo for your comments really valuable.
So they need to shed weight as soon as is practical.
On a related subject I read how the falcon engines are great at producing thrust in the atmosphere lifting heavy loads to LOA.
But pretty terrible ( due to type of fuel) when operating In a vacuum.
At the same time I noted that the US Military is funding Spacex to develop a new second stage for th F9's/F Heavy using a variant of their new engine the Raptor.Now This engine apparently uses a fuel that is far more efficient in a vacuum.
If so (no idea on timing of this development).A Falcon Heavu could have its payload abilities greatly enhanced with the use of a Raptor second stage.
Obviously one imagines that US Military have some heavy stuff they would like to put up in the future.But for early Moom and Mars missions such a second stage could be really useful -no?
I say this as there is a huge leap between the F9's and the BFR.They will need to practice a lot of things before they start shuttling off to Mars.
Such a (FH/Raptor) could be an ideal vehicle I would have thought.

The Raptor engine is more to do with Musk wanting an engine which could "live off the land" on Mars - methane is something that can be easily manufactured from the Mars atmosphere, whereas kerosene is not. The fact that a methane fuelled engine is more powerful is really more to do with energy density and the Raptor being an descendant generation of the Merlin engine (even if just in knowledge gained) than anything else, including efficiency in a vacuum.

It started being a second stage concept only later on when the USAF got involved and partially funded the project.

parapente · Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:44 pm

Thx Moo.Particulary the reasoning behind the choice of fuel.
I still think that the leap between F9's launching satellites and BFR's landing people on Mars ( particularly on his timeline) is too much.Even if the timeline slips ( which it will) the knowledge gap is vast.
Using the FH to try out ideas and gain valuable data is paramount imho.Hence my interest in an improved upper stage.
From a Mars POV the opportunity comes but once every 2 years with next year being one.Sending something ( not a car!) to orbit Mars might prove useful.Orbiting and even landing something on the Moon would also have its benefits ( yup I know it's a vacuum but still).
Indeed refuelling a craft in low Earth orbit is something else he needs to master.
It is one thing to say 'this is what my final plan is' it's another to layout all the learning stages required to achieve it ( as NASA did with Mercury/Gemini/Apollo programmes).His end plan would have a much greater sense of gravitas if he did this imho).I think FH is the best tool to achieve this learning programme.But perhaps he is but just has not shared it with us.

JetBuddy · Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:16 pm

Congrats SpaceX on another launch and successful mission. The amount of hysteria in California about aliens, UFOs and North Korea was pretty funny.

Tugger · Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:18 pm

http://spaceflight101.com/falcon-9-irid ... atellites/

This is a very complete write-up of last nights entire launch. Interesting read.

Tugg

SeJoWa · Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 pm

Very interesting discussions.

So now, we're seriously talking about harvesting methane on Mars for the trip back to humanity's home planet.

@parapente: can you recommend a book that contains the NASA planning for Mercury/Gemini/Apollo you described?

Oh yes: aerobatics announced for the three first stages of Falcon Heavy.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/944495421161742336

Nomadd · Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:25 am

Those photos are pretty misleading. When the fairing is closed up, the corners of the roadster will be almost scraping the walls.

Although the AF contract mentioned Falcon upper stage when they gave SpaceX methane engine money, there's no chance the Falcon will ever have a methane upper stage. There are no payloads planned that a regular FH couldn't easily handle. A methane upper stage would add great complexity to processing and launching for little gain.

parapente · Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:39 am

Not trying to be difficult here Nomadd.But why on Earth would the US Military give many millions of dollars ( of taxpayer money) to develop a Raptor upper stage for the FH if they weren't planning to use it? That makes no sense at all.We know the Raptor main engines are being developed using private funds (Spacex) in any case.
There must be some very heavy 'stuff' they wish to heave up there.And no they certainly ain't gonna tell us what it is!
My point was. Simply that if (as it appears to be) it gets developed for the military it might be useful for Elon to use it for some learning missions towards his end goal of landing people on Mars with his BFR sometime in the future.
I absolutely agree with you that there are no FH commercial payloads that would need that extra thrust.
As above.I just don't believe you can go from F9's taking some cargo and (next year) some pep's up to the low orbit space station and return (ie a few days).Then say my next Rocket will take hundreds of people to Mars (and perhaps back) over 6 months.
Elon is not stupid.There must be a huge programme in between.Jence the thought that this Military F 'super heavy' might be the perfect 'existing' veichle to try out and test the many technologies required.
His biggest problem from a Mars POV is he only has 3 slots in the next 6 years! One of them is next year and he recently cancelled that (Red Dragon).So that leaves 2 shots 2022 and 2024.Its not nearly enough.
Whilst it's not the same granted,what he can do in terms of deep space is go around and on to the Moon in the mean time (fortunately the Moon isn't going anywhere fast!).

WIederling · Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:56 pm

Nomadd wrote:
Those photos are pretty misleading. When the fairing is closed up, the corners of the roadster will be almost scraping the walls.

Whatever.
I am certain Musk is a Heavy Metal Movie fan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWMPe3wF9jQ :-)

Stitch · Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:12 pm

Can the current Centaur upper stage be mated to Falcon Heavy or does it require Raptor?

moo · Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:31 pm

Stitch wrote:
Can the current Centaur upper stage be mated to Falcon Heavy or does it require Raptor?

No, Centaur would require a lot of work to be able to be used on the Falcon 9 - it's also owned by the competition (ULA) so that's a second stroke against it. Add to that the fact that Centaur is currently being replaced, and we have a non-runner

Falcon Heavy doesn't *require* a Raptor based second stage, but it would open up a lot of mission parameters- FH can't do *everything*, it's not a miracle vehicle, despite what some posters seem to think... it would significantly increase the mass capable of being thrown at the moon or Mars, for example.

Nomadd · Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:22 am

SpaceX has made it clear the block 5 Falcon is the last version. They plan to stock up cores and second stages so they can discontinue production in the not too distant future and apply all resources to the new methane rocket. You can't just put a methane or hydrogen upper stage on the Falcon by tie wrapping a new fuel line to the TEL. It would be a major undertaking and is simply not going to happen. The Air Force offered them a lot of money for methane engine development and they took it. Even though the funding had a "Falcon upper stage" mention, there's no requirement to actually use the hardware for anything, so there was no reason to turn it down.
They intend the BFR and BFS to be fully reusable without having to throw away millions on second stages and fairings, so they anticipate prices per launch to be as low or lower than the much smaller Falcons.

Francoflier · Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:20 am

Do we know what Block versions are this Falcon Heavy's outer cores?

They are preflown boosters, but I can't figure out which launch they did and what versions they are.

It's interesting that they went with the Titanium gridfins on the outers and Aluminium ones on the brand new inner booster. It probably speaks volumes about their expectations on recovery success...

The Iridium launch was a block 3, which weren't quite designed for multiple reuse yet, and which is why they just dumped it even though it had enough spare fuel for a landing. Would that mean the side boosters are block 4s?

sharles · Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:33 am

According to https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comment ... gn_thread/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/wiki/cores :
both of the sides are unknown blocks (B1023 is a "Full Thrust" or "Upgraded" Falcon 9 and precedes public knowledge of the Block system.)
and the center is thought to be a Block 3.
Also, the center core may actually experience a gentler reentry than the sides: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comment ... d/drijlth/

Francoflier · Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Interesting info, thanks.

I'm guessing the side boosters were refurbished enough that they are quite different from any other F9 version. They seem to be the ones that launched Thaicom 8 in May 16 and CRS 9 in July 16. CRS 9's booster landed on Landing Zone 1 and Thaicom 8's booster landed on OCISLY.

Although the redditors on the link you provided seem to be of the opinion that the central booster will be hotter on re-entry. Which would make sense since it will burn longer and go higher/faster than the side boosters.

Nomadd · Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:23 am

There are no block 5 boosters yet. The side boosters on the FH need the bigger titanium grid fins with better control authority because they don't have an interstage, which changes the airflow quite a bit.
SpaceX has enough older cores stored and there was no reason to pull the ASDS out of maintenance to send it after another one. In a few months, they'll be switching over to Block 5 for everything.

parapente · Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:51 am

Yes the US Military has offered Spacex a lot of money (that they need) to help them with the development of their Methane (Raptor) upper stage -As has been stated publicly.So that's exactly what they mean! Nothing more nothing less.
Yes Elon says he is going to discontinue production of the Falcon in the near future.Well that suggests he knows the precise future and to the 'n'th degree for a rocket and engine that is yet to be built.
Everything he has at Spacex is totally dependant on the F9's -everything.He has every other rocket company in the World including governmental ones on the run and he's just gonna walk away at the moment of victory is he?Nope don't think so.Thats his cash cow - or will be when he has block5 finally working (not blowing up).20+ F9's flights a year maybe more for how many years?Who knows.And what level of refurbishment will be required?To date his refurb' record is something akin to the Space shuttle! (Ie non commercial).
I love his animated presentations like everybody else.But they should not be confused with business reality.

o0OOO0oChris · Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:40 pm

Nomadd wrote:
There are no block 5 boosters yet. The side boosters on the FH need the bigger titanium grid fins with better control authority because they don't have an interstage, which changes the airflow quite a bit.

Up to your post, I thought the Falcon heavy sidecores had an interstage, because the gridfins are mounted to them. Just now I looked up the latest FH images and you are right. Instead of also reusing the interstage of those prefown sidecores, they moved those gridfin attatchments and actuators on the new cap, making it more complex. Interesting decision, not their normal way of doing things. They probably had to drop the interstage for the load transfer structures and where forced to go that way..

Tugger · Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:03 pm

Interesting.... I just noticed that the overhead picture of the FH in post #770 is a composite of two pictures cropped together!.

Tugg

o0OOO0oChris · Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:35 pm

Tugger wrote:
Interesting.... I just noticed that the overhead picture of the FH in post #770 is a composite of two pictures cropped together!.

Tugg

I think there have to be more pictures stiched together. There is no way you can take a single picture of a 230ft rocket inside a relatively narrow assambly hall, so we are talking about at least 4 images.

You can see the crane operator twice :-)

o0OOO0oChris · Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:46 pm

o0OOO0oChris wrote:
Interesting decision, not their normal way of doing things. They probably had to drop the interstage for the load transfer structures and where forced to go that way..

The more I think about it .. now it makes totally sense why they use titanium gridfins on the low-energy sidecores and a aluminium one on the center stage.
The had to design the cap from scratch, and it wouldn`t make any sense to make a one-off cap just for those batch 3-Cores with aluminium gridfins and the old actuators of those and redesign it all over again for the batch 5 cores which will have titanium fins going forward. Better to go titanium from the beginning and save r&d cost, despite the lower energy sidecore reentries.

Tugger · Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:11 pm

o0OOO0oChris wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Interesting.... I just noticed that the overhead picture of the FH in post #770 is a composite of two pictures cropped together!.

Tugg

I think there have to be more pictures stiched together. There is no way you can take a single picture of a 230ft rocket inside a relatively narrow assambly hall, so we are talking about at least 4 images.

You can see the crane operator twice

Yes, I caught the crane operator as my first clue to look closer. It could certainly be made up of more than two but I was basing my estimate on the number of perspective changes I noted in the steel support beams on the sides of the building.

Tugg

Nomadd · Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:16 pm

o0OOO0oChris wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
There are no block 5 boosters yet. The side boosters on the FH need the bigger titanium grid fins with better control authority because they don't have an interstage, which changes the airflow quite a bit.

Up to your post, I thought the Falcon heavy sidecores had an interstage, because the gridfins are mounted to them. Just now I looked up the latest FH images and you are right. Instead of also reusing the interstage of those prefown sidecores, they moved those gridfin attatchments and actuators on the new cap, making it more complex. Interesting decision, not their normal way of doing things. They probably had to drop the interstage for the load transfer structures and where forced to go that way..

They had to come up with something for the top of the booster, interstage or not. They couldn't just launch with a hollow interstage on top.
The load transfer to the core is all at the bottom, unlike the shuttle boosters.

Tugger · Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:25 pm

Nomadd wrote:
The load transfer to the core is all at the bottom, unlike the shuttle boosters.

I assume the liftoff will start with identical thrust levels to minimize stress on the links then will adjust to transition the loading smoothly between the boosters during the continued liftoff and climb.

Tugg

Nomadd · Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:11 pm

Tugger wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
The load transfer to the core is all at the bottom, unlike the shuttle boosters.

I assume the liftoff will start with identical thrust levels to minimize stress on the links then will adjust to transition the loading smoothly between the boosters during the continued liftoff and climb.

Tugg

It would be interesting to see the load curve for the boost stage. At launch you'd expect each booster to push on the core by 1/3 2nd stage/payload mass. Later as fuel mass drops and the core starts throttling down while the boosters remain full out, it gets more complicated.

Tugger · Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:07 pm

Sneak peek at the assembled fairing:

Courtesy of Twitter:
https://twitter.com/ECDiazdeLeon/status ... 04/photo/1

Thar's a car in thar.... :-)

Tugg

MatthewDB · Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:32 pm

Tugger wrote:
o0OOO0oChris wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Interesting.... I just noticed that the overhead picture of the FH in post #770 is a composite of two pictures cropped together!.

Tugg

I think there have to be more pictures stiched together. There is no way you can take a single picture of a 230ft rocket inside a relatively narrow assambly hall, so we are talking about at least 4 images.

You can see the crane operator twice

Yes, I caught the crane operator as my first clue to look closer. It could certainly be made up of more than two but I was basing my estimate on the number of perspective changes I noted in the steel support beams on the sides of the building.

Tugg

While I concur that this is definitely a multiple shot image, some long buildings have more than one bridge crane on the rails. It could indeed be multiple crane operators in the one shot.

zanl188 · Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:53 pm

Falcon Heavy is on pad 39A for fit checks. Rolled out this morning.

https://twitter.com/spaceflightnow/stat ... 3509995521

Tugger · Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:02 pm

zanl188 wrote:
Falcon Heavy is on pad 39A for fit checks. Rolled out this morning.

https://twitter.com/spaceflightnow/stat ... 3509995521

Pretty cool to see it, thanks!

Here's a interesting picture of it being raised (or falling over unexpectedly! :hypnotized:

) :

Tugg

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