itchief
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:52 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:
How about the second stage 3rd burn? Was that ever caught on video?


I'm pretty sure SpaceX has it on video. I guess we will have to wait for the next episode of How Not to Land an Orbital Rocket Booster.


I am not saying that SpaceX does not have video of the event. But do you under stand the radiation environment that the 2nd stage was flying thru before starting this burn? This takes quite a toll on CCD's in cameras.
 
zanl188
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:29 pm

itchief wrote:

I am not saying that SpaceX does not have video of the event. But do you under stand the radiation environment that the 2nd stage was flying thru before starting this burn? This takes quite a toll on CCD's in cameras.


Are the CCDs not rad hardened?
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itchief
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:42 pm

zanl188 wrote:
itchief wrote:

I am not saying that SpaceX does not have video of the event. But do you under stand the radiation environment that the 2nd stage was flying thru before starting this burn? This takes quite a toll on CCD's in cameras.


Are the CCDs not rad hardened?


Expensive to be thrown away after a few hours. This was not a low earth orbit flight with the protection of the earths magnetic field. I am not saying I know the reason why, I am just looking at the facts.
 
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Tugger
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:24 pm

Funny as hell:
“Here’s the photo Musk is hiding from us.”
Image

From an article about the discussion going on in Russia about how their space program is not succeeding. Is not matching the advances being seen with other nations and SpaceX in particular.
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/vbp ... cex-launch

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
HAL
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:48 am

Did the Tesla roadster detach from the Falcon 2nd stage? Or are they orbiting the sun as one?

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
zanl188
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:46 am

HAL wrote:
Did the Tesla roadster detach from the Falcon 2nd stage? Or are they orbiting the sun as one?

HAL


Orbiting as one. Second stage contained all of the avionics, comm equipment, and batteries.
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Tugger
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:49 pm

Though I am sure the Roadsters batteries were drained to zero charge for safety, I had fun realizing that the Roadster could have actually been started and run up there is space.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
LightningZ71
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:30 pm

according to what I've read, the roadster had it's entire powertrain removed.
 
WIederling
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:15 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
according to what I've read, the roadster had it's entire powertrain removed.


(Over)discharged Li-Ion are about as dangerous as overcharged ones.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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SeJoWa
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:50 am

parapente wrote:
...
This is where it's possible his enthusiasm for Mars is getting in the way of commercial realities.It is the F9/FH that is making the money so that 'his' BFR can be built. Make a wrong turn with the bread winners and he's toast.
His rationale for BFR is it can launch circa 4 seats in one go.But is that really what the market wants? Is the market even geared that way in timing terms - not forgetting very different orbital requirements.Personally I think it's total hogwash - just like going to Sydney in 20 mins.
...
You have a winner - now is the time to stamp on the oppositions throat,not go off doing other things.Ot they will stamp on yours.


I'm also wondering how combining disparate launches is supposed to work, and agree that it seems remiss to not leverage the Falcon 9's experienced team and growing track record [substantially lowering insurance rates].

Hops to Sydney in 20mins can work, but with accident rates similar to commercial aviation? It would take a very long time indeed to establish that as a given.

Great video of the twin landings that Karel posted, by the way.
 
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SeJoWa
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:55 am

Funnier than hell, via Tugger's link:

https://twitter.com/linnlilu/status/961000031888297991
 
tommy1808
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:01 am

Tugger wrote:
Though I am sure the Roadsters batteries were drained to zero charge for safety, I had fun realizing that the Roadster could have actually been started and run up there is space.

Tugg


I am not that sure, Space is very cold outside the sunlight and batteries are usually kept above -80°C in order to work .....

I would think there where no batteries in it.....

best regards
Thomas
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parapente
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:18 pm

The next couple of years will be very interesting I think.There maybe some really unexpected announcements.At the moment the gig saw does not fit together at all.Something will need to give but hard to say what.
We know this period will be key for launching 3 different man capable spacecraft.
Clearly the present administration wishes to cut funding for the space station making way for more commercialisation.Possibly a blend of the two? With additional funding for a Moon programme? Think that's likely.
Will ULA get even closer to bed with Blue Origin?- it's possible.Depends on progress with the new engine (BE -4).A full merger is not impossible imho.
Something has got to give re the SLS.It will launch and most likely work perfectly.Then you have to build 'stuff' for it to carry into space.
Whether it be ( big stuff) orbiting the Moon or landing on the Moon,this is the veichle that can do it.But they have to start building whatever it is soon I would have thought.
Although I did note ULA are looking to launch the Bigelow 330 in the near future.Could thus become the key component ?
Lots of questions and no answers at least from me!
As for Spacex.No doubt they will continue to dominate commercial (and some military) payloads with the F9 thus making money.Which is critical - but not sure what else.
But with NASA,ULA,Blue Origin and Spacex all developing new rockets - and that's just the US.Something has got to give surely?
 
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casinterest
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:53 pm

New droneship landing platform : A Shortfall of Gravitas to join the east coast fleet. This should help in cases where the load requires the boosters to be too far out to sea.
Wonder why there isn't a 3rd as they might need three platforms?

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech ... 330356002/

Musk also confirms that the shortage of lighter fluid is the culprit in the core Rapid Unplanned Disassembly due to High Kinetic Energy Impact event.
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bigjku
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
New droneship landing platform : A Shortfall of Gravitas to join the east coast fleet. This should help in cases where the load requires the boosters to be too far out to sea.
Wonder why there isn't a 3rd as they might need three platforms?

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech ... 330356002/

Musk also confirms that the shortage of lighter fluid is the culprit in the core Rapid Unplanned Disassembly due to High Kinetic Energy Impact event.


I am going to guess that if you need to run the two boosters out that hot that you then need to run everything you can put of the final stage which is where you should gain the most performance right?
 
MatthewDB
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:56 am

casinterest wrote:
New droneship landing platform : A Shortfall of Gravitas to join the east coast fleet. This should help in cases where the load requires the boosters to be too far out to sea.
Wonder why there isn't a 3rd as they might need three platforms?

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech ... 330356002/

Musk also confirms that the shortage of lighter fluid is the culprit in the core Rapid Unplanned Disassembly due to High Kinetic Energy Impact event.


I give credit to the Florida Today reporter who can accurately convert "about 100 meters" into "about 300 feet."

The LA times reporter failed http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-s ... story.html . "About 100m" became a precise "about 328 feet."

Sorry, it's a major pet peeve of mine. The worst was reporting of AF447 where they were searching in water "About 16,345 feet deep."
 
parapente
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:24 pm

A thought - be interesting if anybody thinks it has any merit - or not!

The SLS first launch has slipped to 2020 ( may slip further who knows)
New Glenn is pencilled in for 2020 (but absolutly nothing is known)
BFR has an aspirational Mars date of2022.(If so then first test flights 2020 or later)

I don't believe anybody believes the SLS will get cancelled (yet) due to massive political (state) funding/backing.
But everybody is tearing their hair out due to the mindbending incredible costs being incurred.Once again.
But around 2020/1 everything comes roughly together in timing terms.

What everybody knows is 3 heavy lifters is (at least) 1 too many.But until other vehicles are proven, the 1970's SLS will continue.
And it would be unwise to ignore the continuing congressional state political pressures.

But what everybody thinks is that it is black or white.Either the whole SLS programme is cancelled or it is not.
BUT
What about a half way house?One that keeps half or more of the politicians on board?
The SLS is made of many modules built in many places.But the horrendously expensive and wasteful part is the first stage and boosters.

In max form they can lift 130 tons into LEO.The BFR 150 tons.Pretty close with a little spare margin.
But the big trick ,as we know ,is that this first stage comes back and is used over and over again making it the cheapest first stage ever as opposed to the most expensive first stage ever.
SO
Once the BFR first stage has been proved to work.Offer it (and only it) to NASA.
They still have their second stage and possibly third and their deep space system and capsule etc etc.They can still build their lunar orbit space station and indeed a Moon base if that's what they have been charged with doing.
They just do it at a fraction of the cost by using the BFR first (returnable/reusable) stage.
Ok Boeing looses out and who ever makes the old SRB's.But everybody else above the first stage is 'saved' and this keeps the support of those senators and congressmen.And little face is lost.

Is that a decent all round compromise that might work?
 
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SeJoWa
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:25 am

Interesting ideas. I'm not up to speed on SLS, as with the coming cheaper heay lift rockets, it seems like a very expensive boondoggle.

But Chris Kraft of NASA renown isn't a fan, and makes some important points [for me to copy&paste].

Sunday conversation: NASA veteran Chris Kraft upfront with criticism | By Eric BergerAugust 31, 2013
... there are the operating costs of that beast, which will eat NASA alive if they get there. They're not going to be able to fly it more than once a year, if that, because they don't have the budget to do it. So what you've got is a beast of a rocket, that would give you all of this capability, which you can't build because you don't have the money to build it in the first place, and you can't operate it if you had it.

Q: What do you see as the alternative?

A: In the private sector ...
...
A: What's so magic about this being able to lift 120 tons? Why can't you use what you've got and put your vehicles into space in pieces, like you did with the space station? That's the right way to do it.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/n ... 778332.php
 
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SeJoWa
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:55 am

And speaking further to parapente's point, while being rather ignorant of specifics, two things I'd like to point out:

- Very inconsistent decision making by politicians over time.
NASA's aims and budget strings have been treated like ping-pong by Congress. It has no choice in the matter but to execute even flawed plans.

- What has worked very well is NASA's relatively cheap COTS program to nurture commercial space ventures.by leveraging the administration's strengths while flying under the budgetary radar. Viz:

NASA Hails Success of Commercial Space Program Private Space Station Resupply Underway, Plans Readied for Astronauts | Nov 2013
...
"The COTS program was a great success -- not only for NASA and the commercial space industry, but also the American taxpayer," said Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX president and COO. "Together, NASA and SpaceX restored cargo transport capabilities to the United States and also laid the foundation for the future transport of American astronauts. SpaceX appreciates NASA’s ongoing support and is honored to partner with them in these efforts."
...
http://www.nasa.gov/press/2013/november ... N_11G-GO5N
 
tommy1808
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:37 pm

MatthewDB wrote:
Sorry, it's a major pet peeve of mine. The worst was reporting of AF447 where they were searching in water "About 16,345 feet deep."


I would say this is an ample way to shorten 16,345 feet +/-250 feet. I would find it rather surprising if the search area is exactly 16,345 feet at all points....

Same with about 100m/328 feet. 100 meters are not 328 feet, that is still ~2.5% off. So, 100 meters are about 328 feet.

But then again, I am not sure if position precision at impact even is accurate to within an inch, so pretty much any arbitrarily precise number would still be "about".

To find a way back to topic, does anyone know how precise SpaceX can track the stages coming back? At my work we do 0.6 inch precision, but that is for fairly slow moving objects.....

Best regards
Thomas
This signature is a safe place.
 
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casinterest
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:19 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:
Sorry, it's a major pet peeve of mine. The worst was reporting of AF447 where they were searching in water "About 16,345 feet deep."


I would say this is an ample way to shorten 16,345 feet +/-250 feet. I would find it rather surprising if the search area is exactly 16,345 feet at all points....

Same with about 100m/328 feet. 100 meters are not 328 feet, that is still ~2.5% off. So, 100 meters are about 328 feet.

But then again, I am not sure if position precision at impact even is accurate to within an inch, so pretty much any arbitrarily precise number would still be "about".

To find a way back to topic, does anyone know how precise SpaceX can track the stages coming back? At my work we do 0.6 inch precision, but that is for fairly slow moving objects.....

Best regards
Thomas


It seems that GPS is in play and therer may be a patent issue brewing with blue origins :)

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio ... rge-pad-is

I think that within a meter or even 4 is probably good enough for spacex. I would assume that their are multiple GPS's across the drone ship and the fixed landing pad so that a "Relative" safe central landing zone can be aimed for by the rocket. Standard GPS with some software algorithmic fixes probably seals the deal.
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Nomadd
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:53 pm

casinterest wrote:
I think that within a meter or even 4 is probably good enough for spacex. I would assume that their are multiple GPS's across the drone ship and the fixed landing pad so that a "Relative" safe central landing zone can be aimed for by the rocket. Standard GPS with some software algorithmic fixes probably seals the deal.


One thing you need to take into account with this sort of operation is that GPS errors are generally errors in the received signal. So if the ship and booster are both using the same signals, the errors cancel out. They don't need to know their absolute position that well. Just their position relative to each other.

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