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zanl188
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Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:49 pm

Aviation Week & Space Technology is reporting in it's 9 Jun 14 issue that the Air Force will issue a Request For Proposals (RFP) this fall. Timing is politically correct, last half of the incumbents second term, and may not occur again for another decade.

Key points made in the article:
- 4 engines required for electrical generating capacity. Defensive systems need the juice.
- Development program due to begin 4th quarter FY15, pending congressional approval
- $1.65B budgeted for R&D and first airframe
- Projected maintenance cost increases for VC-25s responsible for RFP
- Some AF1 specific GEnx-2B testing has already been conducted using a 747-8F
- VC-25s are getting an avionics upgrade with first delivery in FY18
- AW&ST seems fairly certain that 747-8I will be the airframe, less certain is who the overall integrator will be.
- E-4B replacement to be worked separately.

I know, I know... another AF1 replacement thread. I think this deserves a thread of it's own since I can site a specifc article with specific facts and information.

[Edited 2014-06-07 05:56:29]
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zanl188
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:52 pm

Will Airbus submit a proposal? I suspect Boeing will fight tooth and nail for both airframe and integration contracts, if for no other reason than to protect the brand.
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PC12Fan
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:14 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 1):
Will Airbus submit a proposal?

Airbus has already stated - unless they changed their mind - that they will not make a proposal for the program.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
zanl188
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:55 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 2):

And Delta and American will only buy Boeing...

I'm sure there have already been sidebar discussions with Airbus that laid out exactly what conditions they would need in order to bid...
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PC12Fan
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:20 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 3):
I'm sure there have already been sidebar discussions with Airbus that laid out exactly what conditions they would need in order to bid...

Which I believe is exactly the reason why Airbus will not bid.

However, I'll have some hollandaise sauce ready to have with my crow if need be.

Regards



[Edited 2014-06-07 11:22:01]
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zanl188
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 4):
Which I believe is exactly the reason why Airbus will not bid

I don't believe they'll bid either... but I don't know that and neither do you.... I would sure like to see Airbus make a go of it however.
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UA444
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:57 pm

So basically, with all those requirements, it's the 747. Airbus knows they have no chance at this.
 
bunumuring
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Thread starter):
Aviation Week & Space Technology is reporting in it's 9 Jun 14 issue that the Air Force will issue a Request For Proposals (RFP) this fall. Timing is politically correct, last half of the incumbents second term, and may not occur again for another decade.

Hi mate,
Does the article specify the number of aircraft in the RFP? There has been some speculation that it could be three, rather than two.
Also, what's the timeline for the E-4B replacement? Is there any more information out there about this requirement now that it is disengaged from the VC-25 replacement?
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
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ssteve
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:26 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 7):
Also, what's the timeline for the E-4B replacement? Is there any more information out there about this requirement now that it is disengaged from the VC-25 replacement?

That may be politics, too. Despite the lame-duck presidential term being "safe" buying eleventeen flying palaces isn't. E4-B replacement may be follow-on to the same program.
 
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:29 pm

Seeing as how the RFP won't be issued until fall, it looks like we will endure 5 months of guessing and ridiculous comparisons.
 
zanl188
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:51 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 7):
Does the article specify the number of aircraft in the RFP?

The $1.65B budgeted includes one airframe, however program is seeking two aircraft.
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bunumuring
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 10):

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 7):
Does the article specify the number of aircraft in the RFP?

The $1.65B budgeted includes one airframe, however program is seeking two aircraft.


Thanks mate.
Any idea about the timing of the selection?
Also, would a 747-8 be designated as VC-25B or something in that series, or attract a completely new designation, VC-???
Like most if not all here, I expect the 747-8 to get this. It will probably also get he E-4B replacement as well.
... And I hope, the JASDF order to replace their 747-400s!
All in all, it would be a nice little boost to the queen.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
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UA444
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:59 am

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 10):

The $1.65B budgeted includes one airframe, however program is seeking two aircraft

I thought the program wanted 3 VC-25 replacements?

If they get those 3 along with 4 E4 replacements, booking 7 more 748i orders would be a nice boost for Boeing. Hopefully another airline gets more.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:17 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 12):
If they get those 3 along with 4 E4 replacements, booking 7 more 748i orders would be a nice boost for Boeing. Hopefully another airline gets more.

I personally wouldn't be surprised to see 748i for "Air Force One" platforms in addition to 748F for new E4-B replacements. Nearly the same aircraft per say for commonality, yet very different in the public eye. Crazy I know, but not impossible.
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bunumuring
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 13):
I personally wouldn't be surprised to see 748i for "Air Force One" platforms in addition to 748F for new E4-B replacements

Hi mate,
Just curious... Why do you think the 747-8F would get the E-4B replacement and not the Intercontinental model? I would have thought the extended upper deck area would have been useful for extra space for whatever they plan to pack into them?
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 12):
I thought the program wanted 3 VC-25 replacements?

Hi mate,
I thought this as well. Maybe budgetary constraints? Maybe something to do with disengaging the E-4B replacement from the VC-25 replacement?
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
UA444
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:36 am

I don't think the 8F would replace the E4-B. There is no interior, windows, etc in the plane and the bigger upper deck would be a plus for the 8i model. The current E4s are not cargo planes, don't see why the replacement would be.
 
FrmrKSEngr
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:06 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 15):
I don't think the 8F would replace the E4-B. There is no interior, windows, etc

Windows are a detriment in the E-4B. They are being plugged during PDM on the current fleet (tail 1677 delivered with from Wichita on May 29 with plugs). The lack of cabin doors on the 8F might be a bigger issue.
 
Max Q
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting zanl188 (Thread starter):
- VC-25s are getting an avionics upgrade with first delivery in FY18

That's interesting, anyone have more details on this ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:52 am

Quoting zanl188 (Thread starter):
4 engines required for electrical generating capacity. Defensive systems need the juice

From a technical standpoint, can anything be done to either the ge9x or the trent xwb to match electricity output of four engines?
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:18 pm

I would like to see a B747-8i as the new Air Force One.

It would make an awesome looking airplane!

              
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
zanl188
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
That's interesting, anyone have more details on this ?

Upgrade includes:

- ADS-B out
- IFF update
- Coupled vertical navigation equipment (Not sure what that means exactly)
- Maneuver camera system (taxi aid?)
- Modern cockpit displays and nav radios

I'd post a link to the article but it's behind a pay wall....
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PC12Fan
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 14):
Just curious... Why do you think the 747-8F would get the E-4B replacement and not the Intercontinental model? I would have thought the extended upper deck area would have been useful for extra space for whatever they plan to pack into them?
Cheers,

It was a ready - fire - aim thought process. Sorry. E4-B would obviously need mid air refueling capability which can't happen with the nose door on the 748F unless they disabled it after manufacture which would add weight which would make no sense. (how many times can I put which in a sentence?) That said though, maybe the main cargo door from the freighter would and some interesting capabilities to an E4-B platform.    Hmmm. Guess that could be done to the Intercontinental anyways, but it's still intriguing.
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Stitch
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:19 pm

If they're splitting the VC-25 and E-4B replacements into separate RFPs, I am guessing that rather than have three VIP birds (with one being tasked to the Secretary of Defense), there will be two VIP birds for the 89th Airlift Wing and the E-4B replacement will be designed to be used for national emergencies (since 1994, FEMA have used the E-4B fleet as temporary command posts during natural disasters).
 
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:33 pm

They may consider building a combination of the f & i .. meaning the freighter upper lobe on a passenger lower..but I doubt it.
 
Max Q
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 20):
- Coupled vertical navigation equipment (Not sure what that means exactly)

That just means the vertical navigation component of the flight management system is tied into the autopilot.
With that function available you can program a descent for example, to cross XYZ VOR at 10,000 feet and 250 knots and the autopilot will initiate the descent and fly a precise vertical path to that point.


It's a standard feature on any Boeing subsequent to the B737-300 but I doubt it was included on most B747 Classics.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 3):
And Delta and American will only buy Boeing...

The difference being, AF1 is also about politics.
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zanl188
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 21):
E4-B would obviously need mid air refueling capability which can't happen with the nose door on the 748F unless they disabled it after manufacture which would add weight which would make no sense. (how many times can I put which in a sentence?)

YAL-1A was a freighter airframe and it got the refueling slipway, so it's possible.

>


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Photo © Stefan Heymanns



[Edited 2014-06-08 15:45:09]
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PC12Fan
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:09 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 26):

Wow - totally forgot about that. So that makes my idea plausible!!   

 
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
bunumuring
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:40 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):

If they're splitting the VC-25 and E-4B replacements into separate RFPs, I am guessing that rather than have three VIP birds (with one being tasked to the Secretary of Defense), there will be two VIP birds for the 89th Airlift Wing and the E-4B replacement will be designed to be used for national emergencies (since 1994, FEMA have used the E-4B fleet as temporary command posts during natural disasters).


Hi mate,
So any idea how many E-4B replacements are being considered? Maybe 3 VC-25 replacements and 4 E-4B replacements? Or 2 VC-25 replacements despite the earlier suggestions of three being required. How many E-4Bs are currently in service? I'm not up-to-date on that kind of thing, sorry.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
zanl188
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:09 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 27):

On the other hand if YAL-1 had gone into production they would have used a pax frame for the additional floor space in the extended upper deck. The freighter was too crowded.
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FrmrKSEngr
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 21):
E4-B would obviously need mid air refueling capability which can't happen with the nose door on the 748F unless they disabled it after manufacture

Airborne Laser had AR, and that was a -400F.
 
FrmrKSEngr
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:35 am

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 29):
On the other hand if YAL-1 had gone into production they would have used a pax frame for the additional floor space in the extended upper deck. The freighter was too crowded.

Why? What would have gone into the extra volume?
 
zanl188
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:14 am

Quoting FrmrKSEngr (Reply 31):

Operators, C2, comm, crew rest, galley, etc.
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bmacleod
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:30 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 15):
I don't think the 8F would replace the E4-B. There is no interior, windows, etc in the plane and the bigger upper deck would be a plus for the 8i model. The current E4s are not cargo planes, don't see why the replacement would be.

I'm looking at a military version of the 777X as best for E4-B replacement. That is if Air Force/Boeing are open to it. (is Air Force overlooks the need for 4 engines). Otherwise its 747-8i for both E4-B and VC-25. Where is the competition?  banghead 

[Edited 2014-06-09 06:35:49]
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Stitch
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:33 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 28):
So any idea how many E-4B replacements are being considered?

I am guessing more than one if they are issuing a separate RFP.



Quoting bunumuring (Reply 28):
How many E-4Bs are currently in service?

Four.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 18):

From a technical standpoint, can anything be done to either the ge9x or the trent xwb to match electricity output of four engines?

Don't think the electric capacity has any relation to the power rating of the engines. It has more to do with the number of generators you can strap on to the engines. For Wedgetail, they added an additional generator to each engine (along with increasing the capabilities of the generators). So if you have 4 engines you can fit up to 8 high power generators on the aircraft (along with any you may want to attach to the APU).

bt
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kc135topboom
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:21 am

The electrical generation capability will be the limiting factor for a VC-25A and E-4B replacement. The electrical loads are huge. Many of the systems use vacuum tubes as they are more resistant to EMP than solid state electronics. The E-4B has 4 1200 KVA electrical systems, IIRC. This requires four engines.
 
UA444
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 33):
I'm looking at a military version of the 777X as best for E4-B replacement. That is if Air Force/Boeing are open to it. (is Air Force overlooks the need for 4 engines). Otherwise its 747-8i for both E4-B and VC-25. Where is the competition

Even if they were open to two engines, they would not go for the 777X since that is not even in production yet and is not a proven frame/engine combo yet.
 
UA444
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:34 am

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 26):
YAL-1A was a freighter airframe and it got the refueling slipway, so it's possible.

That bird doesn't have the nose cargo door.

Is that plane really being scrapped? A barely used 10 year old 747? The USAF can't find another use for it?
 
zanl188
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:10 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 39):

Sure it does... just doesn't open anymore....
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:14 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 39):
That bird doesn't have the nose cargo door.

Is that plane really being scrapped? A barely used 10 year old 747? The USAF can't find another use for it?

If memory serves, they chose a freighter because of the nose door structure since the had to mount the ball turret there. A passenger version could not support the turret without extensive structural changes. It also seems to me that they utilized the opening when installing the laser mechanicals.

As to a future use.. the plane was heavily modified and removing the laser and mission unique hardware would not only be very expensive but would leave one with one heck of a bastard plane.
 
FrmrKSEngr
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:14 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
The E-4B has 4 1200 KVA electrical systems, IIRC.

That would be a huge amount of power. The E-4B has 2 X 150 KVA generators on each engine for 1200 KVA total.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
Many of the systems use vacuum tubes as they are more resistant to EMP than solid state electronics.

But they are so god awfully heavy. Personally, I think the reason why some systems are still using vacuum tubes is because they don't bother to lay out the money to develop new systems. There's lots of way to protect a box from EMP. The most simple solution is to use a grounded metal box. Besides, with most systems going digital and encryption and even fiber-optics, you can't avoid having going solid state somewhere along the line.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 39):
A barely used 10 year old 747?

But the corrosive chemical used for the laser does nasty thing to the frame. I believe they may have a large titanium plate at the bottom of the aircraft to protect the frame from hot corrosive gas from the laser.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:34 pm

I have never understood why the VC-25 was based on the 747-200 airframe. I was visiting the Boeing facility in Everett one day and I asked whether the "new Air Force One's" were on the property. The guy went very stiff and said that he could neither confim nor deny that any such airplane existed. IIRC, they had both already been flown "green" to ICT for fitting out. That took much longer and cost much more than was expected but the prez got a nice ride for the money.

The 747-400 was already in production. Why did the USAF chose an airplane that was already outdated? Cost? I can't believe that would be an issue because money has never been a problem for the Air Force.

It would make sense to tie an E-4 and VC-25 replacement into the same airframe and the 748 seems to be the only option. The citizens of our great nation would not be pleased if we bought an Airbus to transport the president.
As it is the 330 would have made a better, more versatile refueler than the 767 airframe (which was already a 20 year old design) but sometimes "buy American" outweighs practicality.
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Stitch
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:31 pm

Back in 2009 Airbus / EADS stated they had not and would not respond to the USAF's Request for Information on the A380 because the eventual contract will require the airframes be assembled in the United States (for security and oversight reasons) and they're not going to build an A380 FAL in the US for three airframes as it would be fiscally insane.



Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 44):
I have never understood why the VC-25 was based on the 747-200 airframe.

At the time the VC-25 contract was tendered, the 747-400 was still in development. I also expect commonality with the E-4B fleet (which were 747-200s) and the fact that the 747-400 introduced a number of new and updated systems whose long-term reliability was unknown played a role.
 
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 43):
But the corrosive chemical used for the laser does nasty thing to the frame. I believe they may have a large titanium plate at the bottom of the aircraft to protect the frame from hot corrosive gas from the laser.

Correct. and replacement floor beams that won't corrode either.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 44):
I have never understood why the VC-25 was based on the 747-200 airframe.

The Air Force and Secret Service wanted a plane with proven multi year service reliability.. the -300 and -400 did not meet their criteria. They want zero risk. Plus you know how slow the bureaucracy works.. it was lucky they went with the 747 instead of just newer 707's.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:52 pm

Is there a need for an E-4B at all ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:51 pm

The E4 does still have a mission, in peace time it is used by the DHS/FEMA as a command post for major disasters. It has a wide array of communications gear and systems that allow it to function perfectly in that role. It also has the primary mission to support the NCA in the event of a signifacnt hostile act against the US or its allies. While it may be possible to scale down its size from a 747 to something smaller. There is a need for a separate aircraft from the VC fleet.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 18):
From a technical standpoint, can anything be done to either the ge9x or the trent xwb to match electricity output of four engines?

They could adapt the Gen2b drive case with 2 120KVA IDG capability for each engine. And? Install the Same APU gearbox as the 787 has to have 10 Generators in
total on board, if 1180 KVA in total won't do it? hen NOTHING else is going to. . 4 engines 240 KVA each,1 APU 180KVA
you could power Denver with that power!
 
rwessel
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:46 pm

Quoting FrmrKSEngr (Reply 42):
That would be a huge amount of power. The E-4B has 2 X 150 KVA generators on each engine for 1200 KVA total.

And a 150KVA generator will only need about 250hp to drive it. That's on the order of .5% of the output of a CF6-80* at full howl, although a considerably larger percentage at cruising altitudes.


*An LM6000, basically a turboshaft version of a CF6-80, is rated at about about 54.5khp.
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Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos