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Stitch
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:48 am

par13del wrote:
One of the thing always mentioned is the fact that the USAF has a large dedicated tanker fleet and a large cargo fleet, so the need for a multi-role tanker is minimal compared to other countries, ok, I get that. Now without having to review all the old tanker threads, the reason for the a/c to have almost full FAA civilian certification is.......?


The original contract required Boeing to maximize the amount of the tanker design that is FAA certified. To that end, the underlying frame (767-2C) has an Amended Type Certificate for the 767-200 as a "provisional freighter". A Supplemental Type Certificate then applies to the KC-46A with the refueling equipment and military avionics installed.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:50 am

par13del wrote:
One of the thing always mentioned is the fact that the USAF has a large dedicated tanker fleet and a large cargo fleet, so the need for a multi-role tanker is minimal compared to other countries, ok, I get that. Now without having to review all the old tanker threads, the reason for the a/c to have almost full FAA civilian certification is.......?


Maybe to be able to operate in civilian airspace and from civilian airports I would assume. Not 100% sure though.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:52 pm

Does anyone know if the KC-46 will have powered rollers on the main deck?
 
LMP737
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:08 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Does anyone know if the KC-46 will have powered rollers on the main deck?


No it will not.
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NBGSkyGod
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:52 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
Does anyone know if the KC-46 will have powered rollers on the main deck?

Yes, they are called Airmen.
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bikerthai
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:30 pm

par13del wrote:
Now without having to review all the old tanker threads, the reason for the a/c to have almost full FAA civilian certification is.......?


. . . Cost. The specification for FAA certification is well established within the aviation industry all the way from the prime down to the lowest level sub contractor. Keeping the basic air frame under FAA certification keep you supplier base without having extensive paperwork needed to cert these suppliers to any Military requirement. Often time the certification requirements for the FAA and Military are the same, just the specific design requirements are different, so paying an FAA person to do the work would be cheaper than paying a military subcontractor to do the same work. Even the Military have going away from mil-spec where they can, converting many of the former MIL-Spec to NASM spec, so the actual maintenance of the specification is maintained on the less expensive civilian side.

There is still requirement for the Military side of the certification to handle stuff that the FAA would not touch . . . aerial refueling, weapons system and other highly sensitive hardware.

bt
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jarheadk5
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:48 pm

AIUI, the theory behind maintaining FAA certification on a commercial-derivative military aircraft is cost savings. Engineering work is expensive, so staying as close as possible to an already-certificated design minimizes the amount of clean-sheet engineering to be done, and should save money.
As we are seeing in this program, though, it doesn't always work out that way.

*** EDIT: Didn't notice there was another page of (better) replies. Sorry about that...
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KarelXWB
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:51 pm

The KC-46 program took another $329 million charge in Q3 2017:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN1CU1LO
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N14AZ
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:00 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
LN 1116 in storage at PAE:

??? :-( ???

Current aircraft in storage at runway 11/29:

16-46014 USAF Boeing KC-46A Pegasus (767-2LKC) - C/N 34105 / LN 1113

16-46015 USAF Boeing KC-46A Pegasus (767-2LKC) - C/N 34134 / LN 1114

16-46008 USAF Boeing KC-46A Pegasus (767-2LKC) VH008 - C/N 41856 / LN 1100

16-46007 USAF Boeing KC-46A Pegasus (767-2LK) (VH007) - C/N 41855 / LN 1098

16-46012 USAF Boeing KC-46A Pegasus (767-2LKC) - C/N 34107 / LN 1109

16-46013 USAF Boeing KC-46A Pegasus (767-2LKC) - C/N 34109 / LN 1111

16-46016 USAF Boeing KC-46A Pegasus (767-2LKC) - C/N 41860 / LN 1116

These pictures are not visible. I saw in the 787-production-thread that there a lot of KC-46's in the background. Does anyone have a new picture of all these KC-46's? Thanks.
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:33 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
par13del wrote:
One of the thing always mentioned is the fact that the USAF has a large dedicated tanker fleet and a large cargo fleet, so the need for a multi-role tanker is minimal compared to other countries, ok, I get that. Now without having to review all the old tanker threads, the reason for the a/c to have almost full FAA civilian certification is.......?


Maybe to be able to operate in civilian airspace and from civilian airports I would assume. Not 100% sure though.


The main reason is so the KC-46A can share in the commercial global parts supply program. This is the same as the KC-10A, it was also FAA certified. That allowed the USAF to contract with World Airways in Oakland, CA in the early years of the KC-10 operations. World was a DC-10 operator with lots of KC-10 maintenance experience and did the phase inspections for the USAF ("C" checks).
 
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Revelation
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:40 pm

kc135topboom wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
par13del wrote:
One of the thing always mentioned is the fact that the USAF has a large dedicated tanker fleet and a large cargo fleet, so the need for a multi-role tanker is minimal compared to other countries, ok, I get that. Now without having to review all the old tanker threads, the reason for the a/c to have almost full FAA civilian certification is.......?


Maybe to be able to operate in civilian airspace and from civilian airports I would assume. Not 100% sure though.


The main reason is so the KC-46A can share in the commercial global parts supply program. This is the same as the KC-10A, it was also FAA certified. That allowed the USAF to contract with World Airways in Oakland, CA in the early years of the KC-10 operations. World was a DC-10 operator with lots of KC-10 maintenance experience and did the phase inspections for the USAF ("C" checks).

Very interesting. Wonder how the USAF makes sure the civvies didn't muck with the more sensitive systems on these A/C (comms, etc)?
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INFINITI329
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
kc135topboom wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:

Maybe to be able to operate in civilian airspace and from civilian airports I would assume. Not 100% sure though.


The main reason is so the KC-46A can share in the commercial global parts supply program. This is the same as the KC-10A, it was also FAA certified. That allowed the USAF to contract with World Airways in Oakland, CA in the early years of the KC-10 operations. World was a DC-10 operator with lots of KC-10 maintenance experience and did the phase inspections for the USAF ("C" checks).

Very interesting. Wonder how the USAF makes sure the civvies didn't muck with the more sensitive systems on these A/C (comms, etc)?


I wouldn't be surprised if USAF required some level of a security clearance for those whom would work those planes
 
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Stitch
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:47 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if USAF required some level of a security clearance for those whom would work those planes


Yeah I expect they need ITAR and then whatever the appropriate security clearance is.
 
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Revelation
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:37 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ng-tankers says:

U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis has bluntly warned Pentagon weapons buyers that he won’t let the Air Force accept new refueling tankers from Boeing Co. if they’re flawed or don’t meet all contract obligations, according to a person familiar with the issue.

Seems the idea of waiting till after delivery to fix things isn't going to fly, so to speak. Meanwhile, Boeing must be running out of unused runways to store all the undelivered KC-46s.

The article says 2 of the 3 remaining “Category 1” deficiencies are on the way to being resolved, whereas the scraping issue is still "under investigation".
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LMP737
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:45 am

Revelation wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-01/mattis-is-said-to-warn-he-won-t-accept-any-flawed-boeing-tankers says:

U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis has bluntly warned Pentagon weapons buyers that he won’t let the Air Force accept new refueling tankers from Boeing Co. if they’re flawed or don’t meet all contract obligations, according to a person familiar with the issue.

Seems the idea of waiting till after delivery to fix things isn't going to fly, so to speak. Meanwhile, Boeing must be running out of unused runways to store all the undelivered KC-46s.

The article says 2 of the 3 remaining “Category 1” deficiencies are on the way to being resolved, whereas the scraping issue is still "under investigation".


Doesn't stop the Pentagon from taking delivery of the F-35.
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Ozair
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:23 am

LMP737 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-01/mattis-is-said-to-warn-he-won-t-accept-any-flawed-boeing-tankers says:

U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis has bluntly warned Pentagon weapons buyers that he won’t let the Air Force accept new refueling tankers from Boeing Co. if they’re flawed or don’t meet all contract obligations, according to a person familiar with the issue.

Seems the idea of waiting till after delivery to fix things isn't going to fly, so to speak. Meanwhile, Boeing must be running out of unused runways to store all the undelivered KC-46s.

The article says 2 of the 3 remaining “Category 1” deficiencies are on the way to being resolved, whereas the scraping issue is still "under investigation".


Doesn't stop the Pentagon from taking delivery of the F-35.

Despite the huge and not comparative nature of the two contracts and development programs the F-35 met every single IOC requirement, the KC-46 hasn't.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-01/mattis-is-said-to-warn-he-won-t-accept-any-flawed-boeing-tankers says:

U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis has bluntly warned Pentagon weapons buyers that he won’t let the Air Force accept new refueling tankers from Boeing Co. if they’re flawed or don’t meet all contract obligations, according to a person familiar with the issue.

Seems the idea of waiting till after delivery to fix things isn't going to fly, so to speak. Meanwhile, Boeing must be running out of unused runways to store all the undelivered KC-46s.

The article says 2 of the 3 remaining “Category 1” deficiencies are on the way to being resolved, whereas the scraping issue is still "under investigation".


If true, first delivery at the end of Q1 next year will be difficult.
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Stitch
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:20 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
If true, first delivery at the end of Q1 next year will be difficult.


Well they have until October 2018 to deliver 18 certified KC-46s and nine refueling pods before any late delivery penalties kick in. That being said, the USAF feels that an expected March 2018 delivery may now not happen that quickly.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
Meanwhile, Boeing must be running out of unused runways to store all the undelivered KC-46s.


Given the low production rate, it's almost amazing how many aircraft have been built already. The photo below doesn't even include all aircraft.

Image
https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/937914238550413312
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LMP737
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:40 pm

Ozair wrote:
Despite the huge and not comparative nature of the two contracts and development programs the F-35 met every single IOC requirement, the KC-46 hasn't.


Oh I'm sure that they put in the contract that it was okay to deliver aircraft that could not perform their missions as intended.
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Stitch
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:04 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Given the low production rate, it's almost amazing how many aircraft have been built already. The photo below doesn't even include all aircraft.


First flight was over two years ago and I expect Boeing has been producing around one a month since so that would be at least two dozen. The original plan was to have the first 18 delivered by August of last year and Boeing planned to have at least 22 frames either completed or in outfitting by then, so a year on from that...

I believe the USAF has approved a total of 34 frames via LIRP through mid-2019 at the moment so I expect we're probably getting up to that number by now.
Last edited by Stitch on Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:09 pm

LMP737 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Despite the huge and not comparative nature of the two contracts and development programs the F-35 met every single IOC requirement, the KC-46 hasn't.


Oh I'm sure that they put in the contract that it was okay to deliver aircraft that could not perform their missions as intended.


The Block Development Approach was planned from the beginning on the F-35, or did you mean something else?
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Slug71
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:17 am

Stitch wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Given the low production rate, it's almost amazing how many aircraft have been built already. The photo below doesn't even include all aircraft.


First flight was over two years ago and I expect Boeing has been producing around one a month since so that would be at least two dozen. The original plan was to have the first 18 delivered by August of last year and Boeing planned to have at least 22 frames either completed or in outfitting by then, so a year on from that...

I believe the USAF has approved a total of 34 frames via LIRP through mid-2019 at the moment so I expect we're probably getting up to that number by now.


That's crazy! Going to be a lot of movement and flying once certification is achieved.
 
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:38 am

Slug71 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Given the low production rate, it's almost amazing how many aircraft have been built already. The photo below doesn't even include all aircraft.


First flight was over two years ago and I expect Boeing has been producing around one a month since so that would be at least two dozen. The original plan was to have the first 18 delivered by August of last year and Boeing planned to have at least 22 frames either completed or in outfitting by then, so a year on from that...

I believe the USAF has approved a total of 34 frames via LIRP through mid-2019 at the moment so I expect we're probably getting up to that number by now.


That's crazy! Going to be a lot of movement and flying once certification is achieved.

Interesting time for a new presser ( http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-12-05- ... rst-Flight ) to come out:


EVERETT, Wash., Dec. 5, 2017 – [b]The first Boeing [NYSE: BA] KC-46A tanker that will be delivered to the U.S. Air Force next year successfully completed its first flight and airborne tests today
, taking off from Paine Field at 10:32 a.m. PST and landing approximately three-and-one-half hours later.

During the flight, Boeing test pilots took the tanker to a maximum altitude of 39,000 feet and performed operational checks on engines, flight controls and environmental systems as part of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)-approved flight profile. Prior to subsequent flights, the team will conduct a post-flight inspection and calibrate instrumentation.

“We’re very proud of this aircraft and the state-of-the-art capabilities it will bring to the Air Force,” said Mike Gibbons, Boeing KC-46A tanker vice president and program manager. “We still have some tough work ahead of us, including completing our FAA certification activities, but the team is committed to ensure that upon delivery, this tanker will be everything our customer expects and more.”

The newest tanker is the KC-46 program’s seventh aircraft to fly to date. The previous six are being used for testing and certification and to date have completed 2,200 flight hours and more than 1,600 “contacts” during refueling flights with F-16, F/A-18, AV-8B, C-17, A-10, KC-10 and KC-46 aircraft.
[/b]

So, of all those frames stacked up like cordwood at KPAE, only 7 have flown.
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7BOEING7
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:26 am

Revelation wrote:

So, of all those frames stacked up like cordwood at KPAE, only 7 have flown.


It's kind of hard to fly airplanes without engines, but seriously, why fly them if they're not going anywhere. Any flights would have to e re-flown and the engines would have to be maintained properly. Assuming they're all up to date except for possible software issues, once certification is complete it won't take much to hang the engines and shove them out the door.
 
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Revelation
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:33 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
Revelation wrote:

So, of all those frames stacked up like cordwood at KPAE, only 7 have flown.


It's kind of hard to fly airplanes without engines, but seriously, why fly them if they're not going anywhere. Any flights would have to e re-flown and the engines would have to be maintained properly. Assuming they're all up to date except for possible software issues, once certification is complete it won't take much to hang the engines and shove them out the door.

Yes, that's largely true. You hope the acceptance flights don't turn up anything but minor squawks. Also it seems many will need a trip to the paint bay. Could be something of a backlog to get them all painted before delivery.
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WIederling
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
So, of all those frames stacked up like cordwood at KPAE, only 7 have flown.


Another set of terrible teens (hmm, terrible toddlers :-)

i.e. is this frame a late/fresh or an early/from storage production item?
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Stitch
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:55 pm

WIederling wrote:
i.e. is this frame a late/fresh or an early/from storage production item?


This is one of the 18 frames Boeing is contractually required to deliver by October 2018 so it is a recent build.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:33 am

What's with the KC-46 flying from Guam this week on FA? BOE465.
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Stitch
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:11 pm

Spacepope wrote:
What's with the KC-46 flying from Guam this week on FA? BOE465.


Nothing in the news about it. While not an official candidate base, with things getting testy in the Pacific perhaps the USAF is doing a "facilities check" to see how the KC-46 integrates should the active force need to be deployed there in 2019 or later.
 
LMP737
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:38 pm

Stitch wrote:

Nothing in the news about it. While not an official candidate base, with things getting testy in the Pacific perhaps the USAF is doing a "facilities check" to see how the KC-46 integrates should the active force need to be deployed there in 2019 or later.


Probably part of the flight test program.
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747classic
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:00 pm

WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
So, of all those frames stacked up like cordwood at KPAE, only 7 have flown.


Another set of terrible teens (hmm, terrible toddlers :-)

i.e. is this frame a late/fresh or an early/from storage production item?


It is the 5th aircraft of LRIP 1 (total 7 aircraft), so one of the first batch of LRIP aircraft.

L/N 1102 C/N 41858 B767-2LKC 15-46009 USAF KC-46A (VH009) LRIP 1, #5/7
See : http://boeing-test-flights.blogspot.nl/ ... first.html
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