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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:57 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 67):
Maybe they will just not buy anything at all (since there will be a referendum about it anyway)

Or buy something less sophisticated and more in line with the F-5's capabilities.....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/JF-17_testing.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/JF-17_testing.jpg

I wonder how it would fare in a referendum.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...c-production-of-jf-17-fighter.html

[Edited 2008-11-08 07:13:18]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:10 pm

hey Devilfish,

promoting Chinese industry in several threads are you? You happen to be at that air show the're having?
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:07 am



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 69):
hey Devilfish,

promoting Chinese industry in several threads are you? You happen to be at that air show the're having?

Ha, ha, ha.....not really (didn't you notice the smilies?). Just having a go at our European friends' vacillation. Besides, two threads are hardly "several".

And much as I would like to be in an airshow, I have to stay here in L.A. to earn a living.  sigh 
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:01 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 70):
Besides, two threads are hardly "several".

well I was noticing a pattern and extrapolated from there  Wink

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 70):
And much as I would like to be in an airshow, I have to stay here in L.A. to earn a living.   

hey we all have to lay down money for the mortgage
 
TGIF
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:24 pm

The manufacturers have been handed a second RFP due in mid April.

Quote:
Bern, 15.01.2009 - With the delivery of the second, updated request for proposal to the three manufacturers Dassault, EADS and Saab, the evaluation of a successor for the F-5 Tiger is proceeding as planned.

In the updated request for proposal the manufacturers are asked to submit an offer for 22 aircraft. In addition, armasuisse sets the budget at CHF 2.2 billion and inquires how many aircraft can be delivered for this amount.

CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen and Rafale. What about the EF?

Quote:
In the updated request for proposal the results and data gathered from the ground and flight tests and from the first offer have been incorporated. This includes functions and performances which do not meet the military requirements. armasuisse wants to give the manufacturers the opportunity to propose respective improvements. Improvements are also sought in additional fields.

Has anyone heard any reports of what requirements weren't met and by what aircraft?

Quote:
The evaluation of the tests and updated offers will be concluded at the end of May 2009 with the evaluation report prepared by armasuisse in close cooperation with the Swiss Air Force.

http://www.news.admin.ch/dokumentati...15/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=24901
 
bennett123
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:43 pm

I am surprised that the F16 has not been included in the shortlist.

The current model is much more capable than the 1992 version.

Keesje

There was quite a saga concerning the Mir3. Originally they were going to have 100 aircraft which were basically Mir3C's. By the time that the much modified planes entered service, well above budget, they ended up with 54.
 
Stoney
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:12 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 73):
I am surprised that the F16 has not been included in the shortlist.

Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of their way for such a small order. Besides, the SAF wants a fighter which might last for the next 50 years, not one for which the support might soon be gone after the F35 comes online....

BTW, it's quite a lot harder to get the approval of at least half of the voting people of a country, than just have the parliament say yes to a project, like it's done in all of the other countries. That's also a reason why the Swiss fighters are in service for a very loooooooong time.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 73):
By the time that the much modified planes entered service, well above budget, they ended up with 54.

Yep, that even cost some politicians their job. And I believe that was a lesson learned for every project of the Swiss Air Force since then....
All these modifications were crazy,like the better radar, which meant they had to construct a completely new nose. But the added canards were very effective, and, not to forget, the flying triangle was just the most beautiful plane Switzerland ever saw....  Smile
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
 
art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:53 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 72):
CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen and Rafale. What about the EF?

I think that 22 would be a problem for the EF once initial spares and support were added to the (say $75 million each) airframe costs.

Rafale? Not as much of a problem as it would be for the EF, I think.

Gripen? 22 within budget should not be a problem IMO.


Quoting TGIF (Reply 72):
Has anyone heard any reports of what requirements weren't met and by what aircraft?

The fact that only 22 aircraft are called for (or fewer) gives me the impression that the budget is likely not open to increase. If all the aircraft met minimum requirements, the Gripen should now be the front runner, shouldn't it?
 
Stoney
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:37 am



Quoting Art (Reply 75):
The fact that only 22 aircraft are called for (or fewer) gives me the impression that the budget is likely not open to increase.

The budget is definitively not open to increase... even a small increase away from 2.2 billion sFr. will probably kill any chance a new fighter has with in the vote by the Swiss population..
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
 
TGIF
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:41 am



Quoting Art (Reply 75):
If all the aircraft met minimum requirements, the Gripen should now be the front runner, shouldn't it?

If Gripen is the cheapest option and the contenders' don't have a lot of 'bang' that justifies the extra 'bucks', then I think it will have the inside track.

But you never know...
The fact that Austria and Germany uses the EF might play a big part.
Rafale flew an extra ~15 sorties with their AESA during the evaluation and that might give them the edge.

Quoting Stoney (Reply 76):
even a small increase away from 2.2 billion sFr. will probably kill any chance a new fighter has with in the vote by the Swiss population..

Does this purchase get a lot of attention in Swiss media? What is the general opinion among the population? Do they agree that the F-5 needs to be replaced or do they think the F-18 are enough?
 
Stoney
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:17 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 77):
Does this purchase get a lot of attention in Swiss media? What is the general opinion among the population? Do they agree that the F-5 needs to be replaced or do they think the F-18 are enough?

Up until now it wasn't a big theme in the Swiss Media. But it will be one, as soon as GSOA (The People for a Switzerland without an Army) will have enough signatures (means 100'000) for their proposed law to ban any replacement or purchase of fighters for the next 10 years. This will lead to the first nationwide vote on this subject since the purchase of the Hornet back in 1993 which surely will be THE big theme in the media for a long time.
If this law passes, any replacement will be gone, if the vote fails, the next steps will follow. One being a vote in parliament. where they probably will decide to buy the partial replacement of the Tigers, the other being another nationwide vote, which surely will come due to the left parties and the GSOA calling for a referendum (50'000 signatures).

I don't really know what the majority of the Swiss people think, but everyone knows that the F-5s can no longer be kept in the SAF. Whether the 33 Hornets are enough, or whether Switzerland needs another 22 fighters, I guess that's every persons own opinion and pretty hard to actually foresee. Nobody knows what the political situation in 2 or 4 years will be like...
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:58 am



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 15):
Would it not be a closer match to replace the F-5 with something like the BAe Hawk or the Aero L-159?

The fact that they want to replace the F-5s doesn't necessarily mean they want a near equivalent to the F-5. It's more likely they will re-equipe the F-5 squadrons but the airplane they need may have far greater capability in the air defense role. I don't see the Super Hornet winning this one ... and I like the Super Hornet. My guess is the Typhoon will get his one, based on performance and its inherent upgrade capability. Rafale was designed as a ground attach airplane with air-to-air secondary capability whereas Typhoon is designed to function effectively in either role.

Grippen wouldn't be a bad choice but does it have the performance capability the Swiss are looking for?
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F27Friendship
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:21 am



Quoting Stoney (Reply 74):
Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of their way for such a small order. Besides, the SAF wants a fighter which might last for the next 50 years, not one for which the support might soon be gone after the F35 comes online....

I've talked to people who took part in the competition back then. Apparently one important reason the F/A-18 won over the F-16 was they [the Swiss] presumed the latter would not be in production anymore in a few more years so it would be impossible to buy extra frames. It turned out that happend to the F/A-18 (as the superhornet only has about 2 parts in common with the hornet).

Interesting remark about availibility for the next 50 years. Would be a good reason NOT to go for the gripen as from this moment on there will be as much (or more) F-16's built as Gripens.

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 79):
I don't see the Super Hornet winning this one ..

me neither (since the're not a contender anymore  Wink)

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rnet-from-swiss-contract-race.html
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:33 pm

The three choices that are in this "race" are all very capable fighters,no question about that,but i have never understood why SAF with a combined fleet of less than 60 if this future order would stay at,lets say 22,would need two different strong and capable fighters.....
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
Stoney
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:37 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 81):
The three choices that are in this "race" are all very capable fighters,no question about that,but i have never understood why SAF with a combined fleet of less than 60 if this future order would stay at,lets say 22,would need two different strong and capable fighters.....

Well getting the people to say yes to 2-3 billion for a new purchase every 15 years is easier than getting all the people to say yes to 6 billion for a new purchase, even if it's just every thirty years....
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:19 am



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 62):
It seems that prior the F-35 JSF no US product is on par with the Euro Canards (except the beyond-the-scope F-22).

Some may consider the Eagle "ancient" technology, but Singapore's and South Korea's examples are still very competitive, potent fighters.

Quoting Stoney (Reply 74):
Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of their way for such a small order.

Just because it did doesn't mean that a new version will necessarily lose to the Gripen. And what exactly does the SAF want that LM couldn't provide? I don't think they are too big-headed to ignore a customer's reasonable requirements, specially if those would mean almost $2B in new business.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
r2rho
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:11 pm



Quoting Stoney (Reply 3):

But in the end, it's only a political question which plane will be ordered and the Swiss people will have the last word if they want to approve the order.... That's the beauty of a direct political system...

I think this says it all. Given that this has to be approved in referendum, the choice will be for the cheapest platform, without any regard for the capabilities or the needs of the next 20 years, and as has been said elsewhere, only taking into account the taxes I'm paying today, not the ones I will pay tomorrow.

This means that the Gripen will win, as it is the cheapest of all.

Incidentally, unwillingly and unknowingly, the Swiss people will have made a good choice in my opinion, as the Gripen packs the best bang for the buck and would be right-sized for the needs of the SAF. So everybody in Switzerland (and Sweden) will be happy in the end.  Smile
 
art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:57 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 77):
If Gripen is the cheapest option and the contenders' don't have a lot of 'bang' that justifies the extra 'bucks', then I think it will have the inside track.

But you never know...
The fact that Austria and Germany uses the EF might play a big part.
Rafale flew an extra ~15 sorties with their AESA during the evaluation and that might give them the edge.

I'm curious why you should say that Austria and Germany using the EF might play a big part. Ok, they're right next door but so is France using Rafale.
 
TGIF
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:34 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 72):
CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen and Rafale. What about the EF?



Quoting Art (Reply 75):
I think that 22 would be a problem for the EF once initial spares and support were added to the (say $75 million each) airframe costs.

I think I might have found an answer to my question.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...itzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624

Eurofighter

Quote:
EADS’ Eurofighter, for instance, would yield about 10-12 aircraft within those constraints, based on Austria’s EUR 2 billion buy of just 18, later reduced to EUR 1.63 billion for 15.

...

When these factors are added up, the twin-engine Eurofighter will have a difficult task avoiding the perception of over-budget overkill. The plane’s strongest option would probably be a used aircraft sale from an existing partner nation. That may be a viable option, as Tranche 3 purchases look set to strain member country budgets, but cancellation will attract sharp financial penalties. Selling earlier models is one way to ease that strain.

Rafale

Quote:
Its spotty integration with several American weapons used by the Schweizer Luftwaffe could become an issue, and so could its delayed integration with the Damocles surveillance and targeting pod. On the flip side, consistent losses in export competitions (a possible sale to Libya remains its only success) will keep up the pressure on France to offer a very attractive deal. Can Dassault keep its price to about EUR 65 million per plane, including initial training and spares (i.e. 22 aircraft within the budget), and offer weapon integration relief?

Gripen

Quote:
The Saab/ BAE team of Gripen International offers the lowest price point of any of these aircraft, with lease-to-buy options underway in Hungary & The Czech Republic and a strong record of industrial offset deals.

...

An offer of 30-34 JAS-39 C/D aircraft that could mirror Switzerland’s 3 squadrons totaling 33 Hornets may be within the realm of financial possibility.

This pretty much concludes what we previously stated. It looks like the Gripen might be a front runner, unless:

- A Eurofighter partner will sell some partially used Tranche 1 aircrafts at a low price in order to make room for a Tranche 3 order. The Swiss AF would probably need to come to a conclusion that the EF offers needed capabilities, that the Gripen and Rafale don't offer, in order to justify the increased price, compared to the other two.

- The Rafale will include the above stated weapons integration in the price, enabeling joint weapons for Rafale and F-18.

- The Gripen falls short in the technical/operational evaluation.

Quoting Stoney (Reply 78):


Thanks for a thorough explanation!

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 80):
Interesting remark about availibility for the next 50 years. Would be a good reason NOT to go for the gripen as from this moment on there will be as much (or more) F-16's built as Gripens.

The Gripen will hopefully, the MoD indicated this, be operational in the Swedish AF for the next 40 years. That and the fact that Saab have commitments to supply CzAF, HuAF, SAAF and RTAF (and hopefully future Gripen NG customers) with spares for a long time should be enough to convince the Swiss AF.

Quoting Art (Reply 85):
I'm curious why you should say that Austria and Germany using the EF might play a big part. Ok, they're right next door but so is France using Rafale.

That struck me just as I posted my reply. So it would also apply for the Rafale. The reason this is a factor, IMO, would be simplified logistics and training opportunities.
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:16 pm



Quoting R2rho (Reply 84):
I think this says it all. Given that this has to be approved in referendum, the choice will be for the cheapest platform, without any regard for the capabilities or the needs of the next 20 years, and as has been said elsewhere, only taking into account the taxes I'm paying today, not the ones I will pay tomorrow.

I am not sure. The F/A 18 was also affirmed by a referendum and was not the cheapest. The referendum will not be about the type but about the decision whether to buy the previously evaluated jet at all.
SAF fans can be quite relaxed. Usualy in military questions the people's vote follows the recommended proposal, e.g. the official proposal as evaluated by the government.
 
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keesje
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:23 am

Agreed with above considerations.

The Tigers and F18s are twin engined. How important is that is the current requirements? How many SAF aircraft made it home because they had engine redundancy?

It seems the Mirage III serve long and succesfully in de SAF and I have the feeling the Rafales are more multi role then the EFs ATM. They already have AESA radar.

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Guest/74/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
r2rho
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:36 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 86):
- A Eurofighter partner will sell some partially used Tranche 1 aircrafts at a low price in order to make room for a Tranche 3 order.

I agree that something of that sort could give the Typhoon a chance. With Germany and UK having second thoughts / changing their minds about their preocurement commitments, they could try to offload some of their Tranche 1 fighters for a cheap and attractive price. Add to that a decent weapons + support package and the Typhoon could gain some points. Subject of course to Germany lifting its restrictions on northern approaches into ZRH......  stirthepot 
 
bennett123
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:01 pm

After the Crossair crash perhaps some flexibility on the Northern approach may be advisable purely on safety grounds.
 
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keesje
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:40 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 90):


After the Crossair crash perhaps some flexibility on the Northern approach may be advisable purely on safety grounds.

Flight 3597 you mean ?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
bennett123
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:09 am

Not sure of the flight number.

I mean the BAE146 in 2001.
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:15 pm



Quoting R2rho (Reply 84):
Given that this has to be approved in referendum, the choice will be for the cheapest platform

Without having selected the type the referendum is now confirmed because enough people (>100000) have signed a request for a referendum.

Usually in such cases the people will confirm the intention of the federation. Which means "Yes, buy the new fighter".
 
HBChris
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:49 pm



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 93):
Without having selected the type the referendum is now confirmed because enough people (>100000) have signed a request for a referendum.

Usually in such cases the people will confirm the intention of the federation. Which means "Yes, buy the new fighter".

Actually it's an initiative that would prohibit the acquisition of new fighters between 2010 and 2019. This means that for the initiative to pass not only the majority of the people in total, but also the majority of the cantons (Stände) need to vote 'I don't want new fighters till 2019'. Small difference, but when it gets close it could be important.

By the way, they continue to collect signatures because not all the signatures already collected are valid. And by the time we get to vote, it will be clear which plane would be ordered.
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:26 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 86):
Eurofighter

Quote:
EADS’ Eurofighter, for instance, would yield about 10-12 aircraft within those constraints, based on Austria’s EUR 2 billion buy of just 18, later reduced to EUR 1.63 billion for 15.

...

When these factors are added up, the twin-engine Eurofighter will have a difficult task avoiding the perception of over-budget overkill. The plane’s strongest option would probably be a used aircraft sale from an existing partner nation. That may be a viable option, as Tranche 3 purchases look set to strain member country budgets, but cancellation will attract sharp financial penalties. Selling earlier models is one way to ease that strain.

However, the Austrian purchase of the EF was completely fu*ked up by the time the socialists re-entered our government. The reduction from 18 to 15 units with 9 pre-used ones (albeit very low hours) by the German Luftwaffe, cancelling (!!!!!) the night-combat package, and downgrading the order from Tranche 2 to Tranche 1actually increased the per-unit price by something like 10%. Well, as an Austrian, I've learned to live with such politic descicions...

If you have a working knowledge in German, under http://www.rechnungshof.gv.at/filead...nd/bund_2008_09/Bund_2008_09_2.pdf you can find the report of the Austrian "Bundesrechnungshof", the Court of Audit, concerning the reduction of 18 to 15 planes. Your hairs will point skywards afterwards  banghead  .
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:39 pm

According to bloomberg news there will not be a decision by end of May. It is more likely by year end now, (replacement of Swiss F-5)  wave 
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
TGIF
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:07 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 96):

Seems the Swiss have some issues with their banking system so spending $2B (all though a small cost if you put some perspective on things) on fighters might not look to good in the eyes of the public.

Any news by the way about the referendum?
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:53 pm

According to a Swedish economy site,a rumor says that if the Swiss take 22 Gripen NG,sweden would be interested in buying approx. 50 aircraft of a model called PC-21,don't know what kind of airplane that is,probably to replace the SAAB,s SK60 ...as always,future will tell  Wink

Quoting TGIF (Reply 97):
Any news by the way about the referendum?

Not that i know of...
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:00 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 98):
According to a Swedish economy site,a rumor says that if the Swiss take 22 Gripen NG,sweden would be interested in buying approx. 50 aircraft of a model called PC-21,don't know what kind of airplane that is

This.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephen Fox


So, they're looking at a quid pro quo. I wonder if they indicated the same interest for Embraer's Super Tucano in consideration of their F-X2 bid?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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par13del
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:33 pm

A lot has been mentioned about the merits of proposed a/c, here's another question, are the Swiss in any political turmoil with either the EU or the US, are they being pressured by either side for anything, bank secrecy etc.?
If they are under any political pressure for anything I would expect the purchase to be pushed as an offset or olive branch. Yes there may / will e a refrendum, but someone will be offering up a choice and push its merits, so ????????

Military purchases are political, the actual merits of the hardware can always be adjusted on paper.
 
flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:05 pm

I am a bit skeptical about that one but I can't help sharing it anyway:
According to the french news paper France Soir, french defense minister Herve Morin would have offered Switzerland the possibility to use french air bases should Switzerland choose the Rafale...
Stephane
 
flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:04 pm

Quoting Flagon (Reply 101):
I am a bit skeptical about that one but I can't help sharing it anyway:
According to the french news paper France Soir, french defense minister Herve Morin would have offered Switzerland the possibility to use french air bases should Switzerland choose the Rafale...

now with the link (in french, sorry...)
http://www.francesoir.fr/argent-arme...ucces-en-rafale-seraient-imminents
Stephane
 
flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:43 pm

According to the Swiss blog Avia News, the Eurofighter seems to be ruled out from the competition, which is likely to end up with a Gripen vs Rafale assessment...
I am a bit suprised by this as I would have thought the Eurofighter, with its good performance in climb rate, would be better suited for Switzerland...
Can anyone confirm?

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/...mbat-nouvelles-infos.html#comments

(link in french, sorry...)
Stephane
 
columba
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:02 am

Quoting Flagon (Reply 103):
According to the Swiss blog Avia News, the Eurofighter seems to be ruled out from the competition, which is likely to end up with a Gripen vs Rafale assessment...
I am a bit suprised by this as I would have thought the Eurofighter, with its good performance in climb rate, would be better suited for Switzerland...
Can anyone confirm?

Can not confirm anything but having seen the Gripen at the Berlin Air Show I must say it is a great airplane and with its lower costs in comparison to the Eurofighter and Rafale it seems for me the best solution for the swiss airforce (also it would be the perfect airplane for the Patrouille Suisse).
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flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:35 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 104):
(also it would be the perfect airplane for the Patrouille Suisse).

I quite agree with you
regarding the Patrouille Suisse, it seems like (according to the same source) Switzerland does not intend to replace its F5 anymore but is rather interested in progressively replacing its F18's by 2025...

To maintain the costs within an acceptable level, Switzerland apparently wants to buy 12 planes as a first step (instead of 22 as initially planed). They would then buy another 5 to 6 planes every year for 2 to 3 years...

I found something in english, if you scroll down you ll find a translation of an article from "Le Temps" which gives some interesting information:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...afale-News/page99&highlight=rafale
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:27 pm

Should be an easy choice - the Gripen.

It's the lightest and cheapest. Single Engine design - why do the Swiss need twin engines - it's hardly as if they will be taking long overwater trips. It's modern, carries a wide variety of the latest ordinance, is multirole, and is designed to be extremely flexible in terms of ground support. And finally it's maneuverable as hell - I saw it at the Payerne airshow some years ago and it was on par with anything else there.
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flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:35 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106):
Should be an easy choice - the Gripen

Entriely agree with you that in Airshows the Gripen makes impressive displays just like any other modern fighter, however if you read carefully the link I put in my previous post there are some concerns about the Gripen ("the Swedish Gripen is the one which offers the lowest long-term guarantees") which make the choice not that obvious.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106):
why do the Swiss need twin engines

For the climb rate? I remember seeing an interview of a Swiss Airfoce pilot explaining how important it is for a small country like Switzerland, crossed everyday by a huge amount of air traffic, to have interceptors with very good climb rate...
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:28 pm

Quoting Flagon (Reply 107):
For the climb rate? I remember seeing an interview of a Swiss Airfoce pilot explaining how important it is for a small country like Switzerland, crossed everyday by a huge amount of air traffic, to have interceptors with very good climb rate...

The Gripen's climb rate and power/weight ratios are better than the F-18s they have, and even better than the Super Hornet.

It all comes down to cost as well. The Rafale has twin engines, and yes it has impressive numbers, but it is much heavier and more maintenance-intensive. Does Switzerland need a plane with a 2000 Km combat radius? Long legs for an interceptor role.

Assuming that the Rafale is substantially more expensive than the Gripen, I would choose to buy a few more Gripens.
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:37 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106):
Single Engine design - why do the Swiss need twin engines - it's hardly as if they will be taking long overwater trips.

No, but in those mountains, emergency landing sites aren't exactly abundant. Yes, an ejection seat can take care of that, but I believe pilots prefer twin engines.
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:13 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 108):
Quoting Flagon (Reply 107):
For the climb rate? I remember seeing an interview of a Swiss Airfoce pilot explaining how important it is for a small country like Switzerland, crossed everyday by a huge amount of air traffic, to have interceptors with very good climb rate...

The Gripen's climb rate and power/weight ratios are better than the F-18s they have, and even better than the Super Hornet.

Here's a single-engined design with excellent climb rate and power/weight ratio, could do Mach 2, very agile and maneuverable, packs a decent load, comparatively cheap, and the perfect replacement for the F-5.....   

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brian Lockett


It could use the upgraded F-414 engine. Equip it with modern avionics and Northrop's scaleable SABR AESA radar, then you'd have an excellent point interceptor.  

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...veals-new-aesa-radar-for-f-16.html

Now, could NG still build the thing? This tender is taking quite a while.   
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flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 108):
It all comes down to cost as well

Absolutely, however, there are other parameters in the equation: France promises open access of the french airspace plus associate the Swiss to future Rafale development...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...afale-News/page99&highlight=rafale
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:39 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 5):
It's a shame there's no F-20 Tigershark to offer them now.

How true.

Quoting columba (Reply 86):
(also it would be the perfect airplane for the Patrouille Suisse).

I beg to differ.   Even their livery resembles that of the F-20.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-suisse-show-swiss-precision.html

.....albeit with the red and white fields switched.
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:02 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 92):
It could use the upgraded F-414 engine. Equip it with modern avionics and Northrop's scaleable SABR AESA radar, then you'd have an excellent point interceptor.

IIRC it was evaluated 20 years ago already. It was no winner then why should it now? What ability does it have over F-16 which was evaluated 20 years ago as well (and also was not the winner)?
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:29 am

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 95):
IIRC it was evaluated 20 years ago already. It was no winner then why should it now? What ability does it have over F-16 which was evaluated 20 years ago as well (and also was not the winner)?

And I thought I was going overboard with the smilies. In answer to your questions, allow me to direct you to the following threads, and let you draw your own conclusions.....

F-20 Vs F-16 (by Blackbird Jul 7 2009 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)?threadid=108574&searchid=108588&s=f-20+Tigershark#ID108588

F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best..... (by Alberchico Dec 17 2008 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)?threadid=100646&searchid=101351&s=f-20+Tigershark#ID101351

Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)! (by Shahram16216 Sep 21 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)?threadid=73153&searchid=73567&s=f-20+Tigershark#ID73567

Though I'm a bit biased because the F-20 came out during my generation, quite frankly, I'd give a completely updated version of it better odds in combat than the Gripen (of course, there's no way of confirming that now.) And I wouldn't be too sure of the Gripen NG's future prospects either, given the handful of refurbish/lease, and new-build deals for the current model --- and the stipulation that the Swedish Air Force commit to the NG version first before it could be considered. The Gripen's biggest draw as the lone capable, modern lightweight fighter outside Russia and China at its price point today could diminish once KAI/LM's T-50 (now aimed for the UAE) morph into the F/A-50.

[Edited 2010-06-17 18:17:13]
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:15 pm

Deja Vu?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ospects-for-us-trainers-swiss.html

Quote:
"Meanwhile, Chadwick also sought to revive hopes for the Super Hornet sales campaign in Switzerland. Boeing withdrew the fighter from the Swiss competition two years ago, ceding the race to the Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen.

A public referendum now is expected to decide the future for the tender to replace Switzerland's F/A-18C/D Hornets.

'We believe they will establish a new requirement [after the referendum],' Chadwick says, 'that will allow us to re-enter the competition.'"
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:35 pm

After all is said and done - everything is back to square one.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ecision-on-tiger-replacements.html

Quote:
"The Swiss government has delayed until 2015 any acquisition of new fighter jets to partially replace its fleet of 54 Northrop F-5 Tiger combat aircraft.

Defence minister Ueli Maurer says that by the end of 2011 his ministry and the federal finance department will decide whether conditions are favourable for acquisition of new jets in the second half of the decade."



Ho-hum.....   
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:43 pm

So what's pending for Rafale? Still in the IAF competition. Brazil? Lula kicked that can down the road. Libya? Khadaffi wants more commercial access to Paris last I heard.
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