flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:56 pm

That's not going well for the gripen in switzerland at the moment, because irregularities in the Gripen deal are now under deep investigation, and most importantly, Dassault has jumped onto this opportunity to make a cheaper offer than the gripen in proposing 18 Rafales for 2,2 billions of euros. This will make the decision makers under massive pressure and presumably it will be very difficult for the parliament to approve the gripen deal...

Links in french, sorry...

Gripen deal irregularities, investigations:
http://www.24heures.ch/suisse/Tirs-c...on-de-combat-Gripen/story/25957103

new Dassault offer:
http://www.tsr.ch/info/monde/3745043...rafale-pour-seduire-la-suisse.html
Stephane
 
flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:05 pm

Quick traduction from "Le Monde"

"French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation has offered Switzerland to buy 18 Rafale fighter jets for EUR 2.2 billion instead of 22 aircraft from Swedish rival Gripen.

The Swedish jets were recently preferred due to the lower price.

In addition, Dassault Aviation has offered the Swiss government special access to French military infrastructure, most notably to data collected by military satellites."

Well the access to the french military bases and data collected by military satellites has most probably been made by the french government, not by Dassault. There are also sources mentioning access for the swiss to french supersonic training areas, including the over the Mediteranee, and the possiblilty for the swiss crew to stay several weeks in french air bases if they want to
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 151):
The Swedish jets were recently preferred due to the lower price.

So offer i slightly better plane in less numbers and probably far less flight our/ $ is the solution to make them reconsider the Gripen decision? when they clearly stated that the Gripen is more than god enough for them combined with the F-18.....
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flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 152):
So offer i slightly better plane in less numbers and probably far less flight our/ $ is the solution to make them reconsider the Gripen decision? when they clearly stated that the Gripen is more than god enough for them combined with the F-18.....

I don't think it is worth debating here how the plane performances compare to each other and/or what is the best option in terms life cycle cost, industrial, offset...
Let's leave the swiss decision makers debating that behind the scene.

All we can say is that this last move from Dassault and the french government is likely to mess up a bit the decision process on the gripen deal, especially if that eventually ends up being decided via a referendum, because what the average people will retain from all the press noise this last few weeks (rightly or wrongly) is that the Rafale is cheaper than the Gripen whilst displaying the best performance against a Gripen which didn't even meet the minimum requirement, and that the government tried to hide the gripen performance gaps by twicking the selection criteria that was originally set for the selection process.

That's in summary what you could read in the swiss press these last few weeks, so you have to admit that politically speaking that puts the parliament under quite some pressure...
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 153):
Rafale is cheaper than the Gripen whilst displaying the best performance against a Gripen which didn't even meet the minimum requirement,

Woow....that was all news to me......well,if the Gripen NG seems to be that poor, and the Rafale that cheap and superb,then there would´t be that hard to make a new decision......   
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flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 153):
when they clearly stated that the Gripen is more than god enough for them combined with the F-18.....

Sorry slight correction here: the government (and more specifically the Swiss defence minister Ueli Maurer) made this statement to justify their choice.

Now the parliament has to approve this. The parliament is not forced to believe Ueli Maurer...

For information I believe the parliament itself has asked for a in depth investigation of the selection process as it would appear they have been leaks from source close to the air force selection process revealing irregularities in the way it was carried out. Amongst other things Saab would have approached Ueli Maurer directly to seduce him with an attractive industrial partnership, which constitutes a breach to the rules. Also as said before the relative weighting of the selection criteria would have modified in order to make gripen look not so underperforming as it actually was according to the original rating.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 154):
then there would´t be that hard to make a new decision

not so fast, I think the gripen still has some good chance, at worst case the whole F5 fleet replacement program will be scraped for now, then resurected later and Saab may come back with a more agressive offer?

enough speculation, let's just wait and see..
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 155):
enough speculation, let's just wait and see..

There will always be speculations from all sides but i agree with you,let´s Wait and see..... and then continue with more  
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:48 am

I find it interesting that when the Gripen wins a deal for beingt the best overall package including price its despite bad test results.
When the rafaelse fails hit and high tests etc in india and i quote "offered the cheapest price" the Rafaelse is a great airplane.

Lets put it this way, different planes different missions, different costs.
Both has to sell on price and there is a reason for that.

Desperation always affects price and the fewer deals a plane has won the higher the discounts. Rafale hasnt exactly raked in the export orders the last decade...
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 157):
Desperation always affects price and the fewer deals a plane has won the higher the discounts. Rafale hasnt exactly raked in the export orders the last decade...

Is that how one always managed to be the lowest bidder?   After its MMRCA selection, the Rafale could be the odds on pick to get the exports for this decade.

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/rafale/images/90860/dassault-rafale-flying-30k-hours.jpg

[Edited 2012-02-03 08:39:33]
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flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:07 pm

According to Agence France Press, Saab are cutting the price of the Gripen

"Saab to cut jet fighter price for Swiss:... Swedish defence firm Saab will cut the price on its Gripen fighter jet to ensure that it wins a Swiss order after French planemaker Dassault....etc"

funny
Stephane
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:25 pm

The haggling begins.      

I wonder who would blink first?   
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 159):
According to Agence France Press, Saab are cutting the price of the Gripen

I can confirm that the same news are in Swedish press also,but SAAB claims it as pure speculation at this point    ,but what the "rumor" says is that SAAB would go below Rafales price and that the offer still is for 22 Gripen.

Please,Dassault,you got the big cake back in India,can't you let us have this small peace of cake??
regards SAAB.  

[Edited 2012-02-08 10:20:53]
My personal point of wiew is that i belive SAAB is ready to go "a bit" to make this as atractive as possible,since it would have some impact on what Sweden will replace the C/D,s with. There are well known here that IF the Gripen NG is exported,Sweden probably will continiu with the Gripen NG also,and SAAB has left an offer already for 100 Gripen NG to the SWAF.


[Edited 2012-02-08 10:27:14]
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flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 161):
Please,Dassault,you got the big cake back in India

Dassault have not signed any contract yet, so they are not going to let go any opportunity, but if you want my personnal opinion, I think Dassault's chances in Switzerland are now very slim, because the political climat btw France and Switzerland is just not very good at the minute, plus Saab have probably a lot more flexibility in cutting their prices.
Stephane
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:54 pm

New leaks about the swiss evaluation published today, this time it looks a lot more authentic than the previous leaks in swiss newspapers as this report is signed by the commander of the Swiss Air Force himself:

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

Strong points of Rafale:
Quality of its sensors like PESA radar, OSF and SPECTRA, good data fusion.
Weak point: lack of HMD

Strong point of Eurefighter: perfomance like Supercruise at M1.4
Weak points: data fusion and EW suite.
"range and system reliability were amonsgt the weak points of the Eurofighter"

About the gripen:
"the gripen has been rated as unsatisfactory in the accomplishment of Air-to-Air and Strike missions"

It is worth having a read through that report, really...
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:13 pm

The deal for 22 Gripen E's (single seat) has been signed!

- Price is fixed at CHF 3.126 billion, which is almost equal in USD for the moment.
- Delivery starts in 2018 and ends in 2021.
- Switzerland will lease 8 Gripen C and 4 Gripen D from 2016 to 2020 as an interim solution. Lease is CHF 44 million each year.
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 163):
Strong points of Rafale:
Quality of its sensors like PESA radar, OSF and SPECTRA, good data fusion.
Weak point: lack of HMD

Strong point of Eurefighter: perfomance like Supercruise at M1.4
Weak points: data fusion and EW suite.
"range and system reliability were amonsgt the weak points of the Eurofighter"

About the gripen:
"the gripen has been rated as unsatisfactory in the accomplishment of Air-to-Air and Strike missions"

If this is true, how did the Gripen end up winning? My best guess is that it won based on program price. For the price, Gripen is a very good fighter. It's no Typhoon nor Rafale, but it's no slouch either.
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 165):

If this is true, how did the Gripen end up winning? My best guess is that it won based on program price. For the price, Gripen is a very good fighter. It's no Typhoon nor Rafale, but it's no slouch either.

I would also guess it is a better fit to the Swiss way of defense, plus shares engines with the F/A-18 they already operate.
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 166):

I would also guess it is a better fit to the Swiss way of defense, plus shares engines with the F/A-18 they already operate.

No parts commonality between the F/A-18 and the Gripen's engines. Same family of engines.

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 165):

If this is true, how did the Gripen end up winning? My best guess is that it won based on program price. For the price, Gripen is a very good fighter. It's no Typhoon nor Rafale, but it's no slouch either.

Comparing the deal to everyone else, it seems the Swiss paid more for Gripens compared to other comparable aircraft, such as the F-16 Block 52. Compared to the Peace Xenia IV deal, the Greeks under that deal were to get 30 new block 52 F-16s with an option on 10 more. The first batch consists of 20 C-models and 10 D-models. Total contract value is estimated at $3.1 billion if all options are exercised, and total package also includes the delivery of 40 F100-PW-229 engines and APG-68(V)9 radars, 42 JHMCS, 40 AN/AVS-9 Generation III NVG's, 190 LAU-129/A launchers, 48 Link-16 MIDS-LVT, 3 Link-16 ground stations, 10 LANTIRN pods, 11 recce pods, 2 recce ground stations, 40 APX-113 Advanced IFF systems, 43 AN/ALQ-187 ASPIS, 6 spare F100-PW-229 engines, 3 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets, 4 AGM-154C JSOW, 6 JDAM (3 BLU-10 and 3 MK-84 bomb bodies) and 4 WCMD's.

So the Greeks got more aircraft and more equipment for the same price. Too bad the Viper wasn't offered...
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 167):
No parts commonality between the F/A-18 and the Gripen's engines. Same family of engines.

Yeah, just realized the actual order is for Gripen NG's and the C/D are actually leased. My bad for misreading.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:06 pm

Gripen will serve the Swiss well. Were Typhoon and Rafale perhaps too much airplane for the Swiss?
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:43 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 168):
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 167):
No parts commonality between the F/A-18 and the Gripen's engines. Same family of engines.

Yeah, just realized the actual order is for Gripen NG's and the C/D are actually leased. My bad for misreading.

Again...not the same engines. You wouldn't be able to switch the motor's out between Gripen C/D's and the Hornets at all.
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:23 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 165):
My best guess is that it won based on program price

That's correct, The budget was secretly set to 3bn. So in reality neither the Rafale or Typhoon had a chance from beginning.  

This whole procurement set's the bar higher for the most pathetic ever in the history of Switzerland.   

It remains to be seen if SAAB can deliver on this fixed price.
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:38 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 169):
Gripen will serve the Swiss well. Were Typhoon and Rafale perhaps too much airplane for the Swiss?

well,since gripen is the choice of a F-5 replacement and not a F-18 replacement,i don't get it why even the Rafale or the EF ever was considered at the first time......to place a Rafale ore the EF on top of the F-18 seems to be "a bit much" as a F-5 replacement, isn't it?
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:06 pm

Because Switzerland is such a small country (350 km / 190 nm), wouldn't it make sense to buy Alenia Aermacchi M-346 for the single, credible airborne threat we can defend against, namely terrorist attacks using GA aircraft?

One could start an airliner at ZRH and less than fifteen minutes later, our parliament building is a smoldering heap of rubble... we do QRA (quick reaction alert) missions only from Monday to Friday during office times, for extended times we don't have the financial means.

I wonder why Austria has Eurofighter/Typhoons. Too much money in their hands?


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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:26 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 173):
M-346 for the single, credible airborne threat we can defend against, namely terrorist attacks using GA aircraft?

Why not buy some Tor missile system/SA-15 GAUNTLET and place it at parliament building, this system is even capable to detect and destroy precision bombs.

Would be cheaper then the Gripen.
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 174):

That's one hell of a capable system...  Wow!
Quoting autothrust (Reply 171):
This whole procurement set's the bar higher for the most pathetic ever in the history of Switzerland.

Yes, our Mirage IIIS and IIIRS procurement only developed into a desaster when we started to build them... the Gripen is a trainwreck right now.


David
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ThePointblank
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting autothrust (Reply 171):
That's correct, The budget was secretly set to 3bn. So in reality neither the Rafale or Typhoon had a chance from beginning.

This whole procurement set's the bar higher for the most pathetic ever in the history of Switzerland.

It remains to be seen if SAAB can deliver on this fixed price.

You can always buy Block 52 Viper's... or even Block 60's for that matter. The UAE bought 80 of those for $6.4 billion.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 174):
Why not buy some Tor missile system/SA-15 GAUNTLET and place it at parliament building, this system is even capable to detect and destroy precision bombs.

Would be cheaper then the Gripen.

Nah, let's be NATO compatible. NASAMS. The Swiss still have the Rapier missile system that needs replacement soon.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 175):
Yes, our Mirage IIIS and IIIRS procurement only developed into a desaster when we started to build them... the Gripen is a trainwreck right now.

How is this so? I was under the impression the Swiss AF got very good service from their Mirages and until you said something about it, I didn't realize their building the airplane was such a problem? And how is the Gripen a "trainwreck ..." ?
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:30 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 177):
And how is the Gripen a "trainwreck ..." ?

I asking myself the same question...trainwreck??
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 177):
How is this so? I was under the impression the Swiss AF got very good service from their Mirages and until you said something about it, I didn't realize their building the airplane was such a problem? And how is the Gripen a "trainwreck ..." ?

Talk about HUGE cost overruns. We built the Mirages ourselves under licence. Neither the army nor the government issued specifications the aircraft should fulfil, so the commission tasked with the selection decided on the Mirage, at the time the fastest jet fighter in the world.

We hardened the fuselages to lift them by crane, we attached hardpoints for jet-assisted takeoffs, and then the RS version (S = Suisse, R = Reconnaissance) suffered aerodynamically from the photo pods, they had to be redevelopped. We took the French electronics out and replaced them by U.S. ones in order to use the AIM-4.

In the aftermath,the first parliamentary fact-finding commission in Swiss history was established.

In our dialect, we still have the expression "mirage holes", and it does not refer to the caverns where we maintained and stored the aircraft. It just sounds like the dialect expression "we a$$holes".

Well, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Swiss_Air_Force#Cold_War - it says that they originally planned to build 100 Mirage IIIS and IIIRS for 871 million CHF, but ended up building only 36 IIIS and 18 IIIRS, even after getting additional 576 million CHF.

In 2011 Swiss Francs, the procurement would cost 5.3 billions.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 178):
I asking myself the same question...trainwreck??

I actually have more experience driving freight trains than airliners. 


David

[Edited 2012-09-09 04:19:41]
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:19 am

Dassault has now once again (which number in order i don't know,lost track) sent a offer to the Swiss, they offer 22 Rafale for the EXACT same price as 22 Gripen NG,s......a price reduction with almost 3 Billion $ from the first offer they made    It,s known that Rafale are 3 times as expensive to run and maintain than the Gripen so they cant do much about that i guess,but what i wonder is.....wouldn't India be very interested in this huge price reduction they offer the Swiss?

[Edited 2012-09-25 02:20:27]

[Edited 2012-09-25 02:23:18]
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:55 am

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 180):
wouldn't India be very interested in this huge price reduction they offer the Swiss?

Hehe. It's funny how this will play out.

It came to light that the main criterium would be the costs, and after the competitors knew about that, Dassault and EADS are offering aircraft for 3.1 billion too... and there was an earlier memorandum of understanding that the Swiss would buy Gripens. Not a fair setting IMHO.

If the Swiss do not purchase the Gripen, Saab would have to close its production line earlier and the government has to shell out subventions - a severe setback for the small manufacturer. So, EADS and Dassault try to shoot down the Gripen purchase by offering discounted jets.


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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 181):
Hehe. It's funny how this will play out.

I have always been more worried of the Swiss referendum than of Dassault....whats funny is,that there is a risk that there wont be any fighter at all to replace the F-5.
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 182):

Don't worry. It's so bungled now that I won't bet on a F-5 successor anymore.  

The procurement process gives the GSoA (Group for a Switzerland without Army) some good arguments, though.


David
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 180):
wouldn't India be very interested in this huge price reduction they offer the Swiss?

With the MMRCA negotiations projected to be completed in March 2013, Dassault probably already has a good handle on the lowest price they could offer India without giving away the store.....

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/asd_09_21_2012_p02-01-498358.xml

It is a safe bet that whatever reduction they propose to Switzerland already took into account the sundry permutations of order volume, offset requirements, tech transfer, support and training based on the IAF tender which could impact the final unit flyaway cost for the Swiss. Plus any economies of scale such a potential "snatched" sale would bring.

This could also be the real reason Brazil is delaying the outcome of its FX-2 competition for the second half of next year.....

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_09_24_2012_p0-499444.xml
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:55 am

More questions regarding the Swiss Gripen purchase in a Swiss newspaper:

http://www.lematin.ch/suisse/suisse-...-retouches-gripen-7/story/25116550

Translating to English, these are the key points as discussed in the article:

- The Gripen demonstrator could not complete a interception test with a F/A-18 Hornet as it ran out of fuel reserves to do the interception. A Rafale on a similar test was able to complete the test with fuel to spare. Even with the anticipated Gripen NG, air interceptions would be very tight affairs with fuel management, compared to the Hornet. Changes to the strategy for air interceptions will be required due to Gripen's limitations
- A request by Swiss officials to flight test 450 gallon external fuel tanks was refused by Swedish and SAAB authorities
- On the twenty-six test flights flown by Gripen, the plane landed four times with the reserves of fuel below the minimum levels
- There are a total of 98 issues identified with Gripen that will need addressing to meet requirements
- Demonstrator could not exceed Mach 1.34 as the engine air intakes need redesigning
- AMRAAM and IRST integration has not even progressed past mockup phase
- Swiss evaluators were frustrated by the limitations imposed by Swedish authorities and the demonstrator's lack of maturity. A flight test was actually scrubbed for photo ops, leaving some test points uncompleted
- The new AESA radar adds 200kg to the nose of the aircraft, creating a situation of a nose-down trim. To compensate, the rear fuselage will need to be extended 37cm
- 70% of components on Gripen NG will be new. The Gripen NG will essentially be an all new aircraft. Developmental risks as assessed are fairly high
- The Air Force evaluation team preferred the Rafale, followed closely by the Eurofighter.
- Delivery is anticipated to not occur before 2023

This seems to jive with the leaked reported above that Gripen had trouble meeting requirements, and that it was not the preferred aircraft.

[Edited 2012-10-29 21:56:10]
 
flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:04 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 185):
The new AESA radar adds 200kg to the nose of the aircraft, creating a situation of a nose-down trim. To compensate, the rear fuselage will need to be extended 37cm

I wonder how the Eurofighter will accomodate the weight increase from its AESA radar and whether its customers are prepared to fund whatever fix will be required. Because it does not look like a simple costmetic fix to do....
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:41 am

Quoting flagon (Reply 186):
This seems to jive with the leaked reported above that Gripen had trouble meeting requirements, and that it was not the preferred aircraft.

That article is from May and a lot has happened since then. Looks like the article didn't have the desired effect as the leakers (oh I wonder who they might be...) was hoping for.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...zerland-cement-gripen-pact-375879/
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:01 pm

The Swiss government yesterday sent a formal proposal to the Swiss parliament
to acquire 22 new Saab Gripen E version.

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/fordo..._motor/flygplan/article3583256.ece

Two press releases in German:

http://www.vbs.admin.ch/internet/vbs...on/news/news_detail.46698.nsb.html
http://www.vbs.admin.ch/internet/vbs...on/news/news_detail.46725.nsb.html

[Edited 2012-11-15 07:06:50]

[Edited 2012-11-15 07:07:04]
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:21 pm

"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
columba
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:55 am

Only 22 Gripens ? Will the Patrouille Suisse be able get some ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 190):

Historically, Patrouille Suisse has often used the oldest equipment. I don't think the Tigers will be retired soon.

Between 1959 and 1964 (National Fair), a squadron was tasked to train formation flying with the Hawker Hunter - at that time, it was the newest equipment of our air force. Later, after the P-16 and N-20 swiss-built fighters did not materialize, we bought additional, second-hand Hunters. And they have always used those Hunters until 1994, when they changed to F-5E Tigers.



David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:11 pm

Le Matin wants a French aircraft to replace Tiger, I think. If Gripen were made in France and Rafale anywhere outside of France, Le Matin would be telling us how brilliant Gripen is and how bad Rafale is, I think.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 185):
- The Gripen demonstrator could not complete a interception test with a F/A-18 Hornet as it ran out of fuel reserves to do the interception. A Rafale on a similar test was able to complete the test with fuel to spare. Even with the anticipated Gripen NG, air interceptions would be very tight affairs with fuel management, compared to the Hornet. Changes to the strategy for air interceptions will be required due to Gripen's limitations

I have problems seeing how you could hit fuel problems intercepting an aircraft. I don't think it is possible to fly more than 350Km in any direction without leaving Swiss airspace. For a squadron stationed in central Switzerland, the Swiss border would never be more than about 200Km.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 185):
- - A request by Swiss officials to flight test 450 gallon external fuel tanks was refused by Swedish and SAAB authorities
- On the twenty-six test flights flown by Gripen, the plane landed four times with the reserves of fuel below the minimum levels
- There are a total of 98 issues identified with Gripen that will need addressing to meet requirements
- Demonstrator could not exceed Mach 1.34 as the engine air intakes need redesigning
- AMRAAM and IRST integration has not even progressed past mockup phase
- Swiss evaluators were frustrated by the limitations imposed by Swedish authorities and the demonstrator's lack of maturity. A flight test was actually scrubbed for photo ops, leaving some test points uncompleted
- The new AESA radar adds 200kg to the nose of the aircraft, creating a situation of a nose-down trim. To compensate, the rear fuselage will need to be extended 37cm
- 70% of components on Gripen NG will be new. The Gripen NG will essentially be an all new aircraft. Developmental risks as assessed are fairly high
- The Air Force evaluation team preferred the Rafale, followed closely by the Eurofighter.
- Delivery is anticipated to not occur before 2023

Well, almost everything that could be wrong was wrong, it seems, according to Le Matin. I don't believe all they say. I don't think they are a reliable source.

For example, they say:

- delivery is anticipated to not occur before 2023.
What is their source for this?
- Demonstrator could not exceed Mach 1.34 as the engine air intakes need redesigning
I think that is nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think thrust required to achieve M1.34 is roughly half what is required to achieve M2.0, so according to Le Matin thrust is down by roughly 50% (assuming drag of E/F being the same as drag of C/D).
 
TGIF
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:37 am

Art, ignore the Dassault sponsored sources...   The article is old and as I said above, a lot has happened since then e.g.:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 185):
- Delivery is anticipated to not occur before 2023

This is now:

Quote:
The first of 22 JAS 39Es will arrive in mid-2018. Eleven aircraft are to be handed over by the end of 2019 with the remainder arriving in 2020-21.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/awx_11_14_2012_p0-517003.xml&p=2
 
columba
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 191):
Historically, Patrouille Suisse has often used the oldest equipment. I don't think the Tigers will be retired soon.

Between 1959 and 1964 (National Fair), a squadron was tasked to train formation flying with the Hawker Hunter - at that time, it was the newest equipment of our air force. Later, after the P-16 and N-20 swiss-built fighters did not materialize, we bought additional, second-hand Hunters. And they have always used those Hunters until 1994, when they changed to F-5E Tigers.


Okay, maybe Patrouille Suisse will get some older 2nd Gripens in the future then. I honestly don´t believe that the Tigers wil be kept just for the PS when they will be retired with the air force.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 194):
Okay, maybe Patrouille Suisse will get some older 2nd Gripens in the future then. I honestly don´t believe that the Tigers wil be kept just for the PS when they will be retired with the air force.

The Tigers will be kept anyway until the Gripen is in service. Like the Hunters were phased out from PS *and* regular air force service in 1994.

Then, the Patrouille Suisse might fly with F/A-18C...



David
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as739x
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 11):
it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else

Sounds like an Airbus
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:18 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 196):
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 11):
it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else

Sounds like an Airbus

Are you just saying that because you are as737x (don't think Airbus make 737's) or is there actually something in what you say?

I don't see a pattern of airlines ordering Airbus then when it comes to fleet replacement after many years of "paying through the nose for everything else" those airlines saying "We are not going to make that mistake again!"
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:47 pm

Speaking of 'cheap'...it doesn't seem the E/F would be anything like that at all.....         

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Quote:
"Saab’s preliminary costs submitted to the government suggest the company can deliver a Gripen E/F at roughly $80 million per jet.

Moreover, the government puts the total cost of acquiring 40 to 60 aircraft, including development and lifecycle costs, at $13.5 billion. The Air Force expects to take delivery of the first Gripen E/F aircraft in 2023, with the fighter expected to stay in service until 2043.

Swiss Partnership Shaky

Saab’s figures for serial production are based on receiving a final order for 22 E/F fighters from Switzerland. Sweden in August guaranteed delivery for a fixed cost of $3.25 billion."



A bit of irony that the more a fighter costs and gets modern...the shorter it is expected to stay in service.  
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flyingturtle
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:40 am

...and there was even a story about a treaty between Switzerland and Sweden. And even the Defense Ministry did not know if it was a memorandum of understanding, or a binding contract.

And seemingly, this contract was with the Swedish government, not with Saab.


All Swiss are amateurs, give or take... 


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.

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