Search found 496 matches

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by george77300
Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:16 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: 787 In Service Thread 2018
Replies: 11
Views: 1384

Re: 787 In Service Thread 2018

Absolutely Phenomenal work. Well done for a great start to the thread. :checkmark:

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by george77300
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:05 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Best Business Europe - Johannesburg
Replies: 3
Views: 187

Re: Best Business Europe - Johannesburg

I’m planning a trip to Johannesburg in January and looking for advice. If I’m willing to reposition, there’s very little difference in price on the below airlines so which should I choose for experience, food, seat, lounge etc; BA A380 via LHR TK A330 via IST (they’ll be in new airport by Jan) EK A...

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by george77300
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:02 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: I'm surprised I never landed at...
Replies: 13
Views: 454

Re: I'm surprised I never landed at...

ChrisKen wrote:
I've taken off in more aircraft than I've landed in.


How have you managed that? More take offs than landings. How do you take off and not land? Unless you are posting this from inflight WiFi???

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by george77300
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:21 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: EK221 DXB-DFW diverts to MSP?
Replies: 11
Views: 3645

Re: EK221 DXB-DFW diverts to MSP?

Where did this park? DL gates suncountry gates or remote stand? Further details. Just from Satellite view Gate G6 at Terminal 1. Looks like DL gate. Thanks for the info. Where do you get real time satilite view? Very unscientific but surprisingly accurate. Went on FR24 for the flight that landed an...

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by george77300
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:35 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread 2018
Replies: 976
Views: 334308

Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread 2018

Anyone in the know when IB receives its first A350? It is scheduled for first flight with Iberia to LHR on 20th July. So by then. Also delivery reported July 2018. Best I can give you is if all to plan between 1st-20th July. Most likely earlier so they have time to do what they need to do before it...

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by george77300
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:31 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: EK221 DXB-DFW diverts to MSP?
Replies: 11
Views: 3645

Re: EK221 DXB-DFW diverts to MSP?

Kno wrote:
Where did this park? DL gates suncountry gates or remote stand?


Further details. Just from Satellite view Gate G6 at Terminal 1. Looks like DL gate.

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by george77300
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:29 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: EK221 DXB-DFW diverts to MSP?
Replies: 11
Views: 3645

Re: EK221 DXB-DFW diverts to MSP?

Kno wrote:
Where did this park? DL gates suncountry gates or remote stand?


According to FR24 it appeared to park in DL gates. Not 100% sure though.

Edit: Looks very much like DL gates on the East side of the field Terminal 1.

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by george77300
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:59 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: What airlines are next for London Southend Airport?
Replies: 20
Views: 2920

Re: What airlines are next for London Southend Airport?

With the recent announcement of FR setting up a new base with 13 routes at SEN, it seems there is no stopping the airport and with a 5m passenger target by 2022, there are bound to be not only more flights by the current airlines, but also new airlines. I was quite surprised that FR are setting up ...

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by george77300
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:49 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders
Replies: 273
Views: 67024

Re: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-06-19- ... Freighters

Thread to discuss (not here :)): viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1396999
-->

Another order in from FedEx

12 x B767F
12 x B777F

Boeing Release: http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-06-19- ... Freighters

Thread to discuss (not here :)): viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1396999

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by george77300
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:17 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

To look that up I’ll need the regional that operated it. DL3991 is now an Endevour flight but different route. So guessing possible that and swapped flight number or could be a different regional. On that day into MDW Delta mainline operated 5 flights from ATL only so it must be a regional. You sai...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:32 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

I’m getting N861DA. Makes sense. Delta B777-200ER BIG THANKS One more 27 NOV 2015 DL3991 DTW-MDW CRJ9 To look that up I’ll need the regional that operated it. DL3991 is now an Endevour flight but different route. So guessing possible that and swapped flight number or could be a different regional. ...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:21 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

One more ... 20 AUG 2012 DL158 ICN-DTW B777 I’m getting N861DA. Makes sense. Delta B777-200ER BIG THANKS One more 27 NOV 2015 DL3991 DTW-MDW CRJ9 To look that up I’ll need the regional that operated it. DL3991 is now an Endevour flight but different route. So guessing possible that and swapped flig...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:23 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

Alphazone wrote:
george77300 wrote:
Alphazone wrote:

For sure. Thanks and cheers from Poznań POZ


Yes it was N178DN for sure. :checkmark: :bouncy:


One more ...

20 AUG 2012 DL158 ICN-DTW B777


I’m getting N861DA. Makes sense. Delta B777-200ER

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by george77300
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:18 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR
Replies: 159
Views: 21565

Re: Reuters: Airbus is studying A321XLR with extended range over LR

Prost wrote:
I know what an engine pip is, but what exactly does the acronym stand for? Sorry for derailing the conversation, but I’m not phrasing my google query appropriately.


Performance Improvement Package (PIP)

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by george77300
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:03 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DY emergency landing at BHX
Replies: 8
Views: 1214

Re: DY emergency landing at BHX

Good video of a DY 789 making an emergency landing at BHX, reported hydraulics problems, looks like the inside left tire was blown before landing as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWE0K-Zno4I Most definitely a 738 NOT 789. It was operating KEF - MAD. Darn it, sorry guys, sorry I was looking ...

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by george77300
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:28 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DY emergency landing at BHX
Replies: 8
Views: 1214

Re: DY emergency landing at BHX

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b9f779c&opt=1
-->

Here is the AVherald accident report with some more details.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b9f779c&opt=1

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by george77300
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:27 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DY emergency landing at BHX
Replies: 8
Views: 1214

Re: DY emergency landing at BHX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWE0K-Zno4I


Most definitely a 738 NOT 789. It was operating KEF - MAD.
-->

jetwet1 wrote:
Good video of a DY 789 making an emergency landing at BHX, reported hydraulics problems, looks like the inside left tire was blown before landing as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWE0K-Zno4I


Most definitely a 738 NOT 789. It was operating KEF - MAD.

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by george77300
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:56 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: TK after new Istanbul airport
Replies: 35
Views: 4970

Re: TK after new Istanbul airport

TK in Australia? PER/MEL/SYD? New frames can do Perth but what about Syd and Mel IST-SYD would become second longest flight in the world after SQs SIN-EWR. This would need a B778X or A350 ULR to operate effectively. Just this week TK are considering an order for the B777X (assume at least some 8X) ...

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by george77300
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:52 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Your 2018 Booked/Flown Flights List
Replies: 209
Views: 10847

Re: Your 2018 Booked/Flown Flights List

Finally my first, (and possibly only), commercial flights of 2018 booked: 25-06-18 / BA103 / LHR-YYC / B788 J / (1st B787, 40th BA Flight) 09-07-18 / BA84 / YVR-LHR / A380 F / (9th A380, 41st BA Flight) Another two booked on the trip. So far this trip has 3/4 new types for me! 25-06-18 / BA 103 / L...

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by george77300
Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:34 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Production/Delivery Thread 2018
Replies: 485
Views: 115652

Re: Boeing 737MAX Production/Delivery Thread 2018

ikolkyo wrote:
That GOL MAX 8 is a looker!


Agreed. :checkmark:

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by george77300
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:15 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: BA 225 to MSY diversion
Replies: 2
Views: 1480

Re: BA 225 to MSY diversion

Casobs wrote:
Anyone know why it diverted into gander this evening? It was in the ground for just under 2 hours and is back on it's way.


Medical Emergency to offload 2 passengers. Not sure of further details.

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by george77300
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:13 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Etihad to defer/cancel 777X.
Replies: 2
Views: 706

Re: Etihad to defer/cancel 777X.

Unfortunate news. Hopefully it's not start of a trend. The 777X is VLA and as has been seen their market is not exactly rosy. Perhaps BA or some other airline can step in claim the slots. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-etihad-airways-boeing-exclusive/exclusive-etihad-airways-in-talks-to-cancel-...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:52 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders
Replies: 273
Views: 67024

Re: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders

AIRBUS & BOEING MAY UPDATE SUMMARY Summary: 1st January - 31st May 2018 Airbus: 161 Gross Orders 111 Net Orders (108 x A320, -4 x A330, -7 x A350, 14 x A380) Boeing: 376 Gross Orders 306 Net Orders (193 x B737, 14 x B747, 7 x B767, 9 x B777, 83 x B787) NEW MAY ORDERS Airbus: 9 x A320 - Lufthansa...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:42 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

Alphazone wrote:
george77300 wrote:
Alphazone wrote:

What about this one
06 FEB 2016 DL62 LHRBOS B763

I had recorded N169DZ but the crew corrected it to N178DN.


It is N178DN.


For sure. Thanks and cheers from Poznań POZ


Yes it was N178DN for sure. :checkmark: :bouncy:

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by george77300
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:57 am
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

Not a problem, George has been a great help to me and you've alerted me to the existence of flightdiary (now myflightradar) so am in the process of putting my flights on there! I have all of mine in my.flightradar24 too. It's such a cool way to see where you've been and on what aircraft. Also shows...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:48 am
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: BA Seat Assignment - Charging for Business Class?
Replies: 16
Views: 983

Re: BA Seat Assignment - Charging for Business Class?

They are one of the only airlines that do on a full fare International J ticket. That is incorrect. A J Class (and C class) ticket comes with free seat pre-assignment. It's not just oneworld Sapphires and above that get free seat assignments. I can't copy the URL for some reason but it's ok BA's we...

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by george77300
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: BA Seat Assignment - Charging for Business Class?
Replies: 16
Views: 983

Re: BA Seat Assignment - Charging for Business Class?

First booking ever on BA - and I find out that, having purchased three Business Class ("Club World," I believe they call it) tickets, at a not-inconsiderable price, I must pay an additional $108-$155/seat to select seats in advance. Well, I admit to being impressed. But the impression is ...

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by george77300
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:19 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Easiest Program To Get Star Alliance Gold
Replies: 6
Views: 1335

Re: Easiest Program To Get Star Alliance Gold

I’m thinking of flying from DUB-JNB early next year in business and the 2 cheapest airlines are ET via ADD & TK via IST. Will either of these routes get me to Star Gold with any Star Alliance program? I have no idea but 1 return flight even in Business is normally not enough to get silver, let ...

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by george77300
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:48 pm
Forum: Aviation Photography
Topic: Identifying Aircraft Types
Replies: 5
Views: 274

Re: Identifying Aircraft Types

Hi all: I'm very new to this and trying to learn and get started. When viewing/photographing an aircraft, how do you identify the type if the registration isn't clearly visible? I know you can narrow it down by looking at the fleet of the airline, but does anyone have any other identification tacti...

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by george77300
Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: First Flight and Airline?
Replies: 79
Views: 1707

Re: First Flight and Airline?

22-August-2000 for me. British Airways B767-300ER (BA345 / G-BZHA) LHR-NCE. This was just before my first birthday.

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by george77300
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:58 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Qatar Airways aircraft parked at LHR T5
Replies: 14
Views: 4382

Re: Qatar Airways aircraft parked at LHR T5

LH658 wrote:
Does QR crew operate this flight? or BA?


Andy33 wrote:
It would have to be Qatar crew, being as BA has no A330s so none of their crew will be current on them even if they've flown them in previous jobs.


It is Qatar crew and Qatar service/food. Quite a good upgrade for all the BA customers.

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by george77300
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:49 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: N772SW Heading to VCV
Replies: 37
Views: 6977

Re: N772SW Heading to VCV

I am 99% positive that it is going to VCV for painting. Wouldn't have gone to PAE for repairs if it was being retired, it would've either been flown to the desert straight from PHL or scrapped at PHL itself. My guess is that it will be going there for paint. Maybe not a full repaint, but areas on t...

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by george77300
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:16 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders
Replies: 273
Views: 67024

Re: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders

Wow who ordered 15 A359s? That is the $ 1,000,000,- question. ;) Maybe a Chinese carrier? Didn't HNA Group or something recently order 15 A350s? Could this be them being firmed? Yes it is. HNA ordered 15 for Hainan. Don't know why people are speculating others or even a whole thread on this being f...

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by george77300
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:56 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread 2018
Replies: 976
Views: 334308

Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread 2018

The May 2018 Airbus report included the following: > new order for (15) A350-900s from Undisclosed purchaser > re-consolidation of 25x A350-900s orders of Air France and KLM under Air France-KLM Group (the 3 Joon A350-900s to be delivered in 2019 remain under a separate Air France entry) I would th...

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by george77300
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:52 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Virgin Australia and the A350?
Replies: 25
Views: 6520

Re: Virgin Australia and the A350?

This thread is nonsense. HNA ordered 15 A350 for Hainan not long ago. Almost 100% it’s those for China.

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: 737 Max In Service Thread
Replies: 20
Views: 2991

Re: 737 Max In Service Thread

Seems like YHZ sees its fair share of Max's and might just be the current leader, percentage wise, of Max vs non Max visitors?........ Yes.....some evenings this summer in Halifax you'll see an Air Canada MAX to Heathrow, WestJet MAXs to both Gatwick and Paris.....and also an Icelandair MAX to KEF ...

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:49 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

[q theslider, apologies for hijacking your post, I hope at least you got some entertainment. Not a problem, George has been a great help to me and you've alerted me to the existence of flightdiary (now myflightradar) so am in the process of putting my flights on there! I have all of mine in my.flig...

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:11 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders
Replies: 273
Views: 67024

Re: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders

Also keep in mind, especially for A320neo, there are airlines with 400+ on order that may not all get delivered from both manufacturers. Interesting who and when decides that an order logged in the books "may" not be delivered. Not surprised by the criteria applied seeing the numbers thou...

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:08 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders
Replies: 273
Views: 67024

Re: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders

Arion640 wrote:
Geoff1947 wrote:
An order for 15 x A350-900 booked as undisclosed.


Interesting. I wonder who that could be. Someone who has a few already I imagine.


A lessor ordering more? Or China. China like to order undisclosed a lot of the time.

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders
Replies: 273
Views: 67024

Re: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders

AIRBUS MAY UPDATE Summary: 1st January - 31st May 2018 Airbus: 161 Gross Orders 111 Net Orders (108 x A320, -4 x A330, -7 x A350, 14 x A380) Boeing still April numbers: Summary: 1st January - 30th April 2018 Boeing: 333 Gross Orders 268 Net Orders (171 x B737, 14 x B747, 7 x B767, 5 x B777, 71 x B7...

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:52 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders
Replies: 273
Views: 67024

Re: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... tara-order Bloomberg reporting Airbus is the favorite for the Vistara single aisle order worth $6.6 billion. Good if this turns out to be true. A little bit of both: NB Airbus and WB Boeing. But to be honest everything is being speculated now. Let's hold ...

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:28 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders
Replies: 273
Views: 67024

Re: Airbus And Boeing 2018 Orders

AIRBUS MAY UPDATE Summary: 1st January - 31st May 2018 Airbus: 161 Gross Orders 111 Net Orders (108 x A320, -4 x A330, -7 x A350, 14 x A380) Boeing still April numbers: Summary: 1st January - 30th April 2018 Boeing: 333 Gross Orders 268 Net Orders (171 x B737, 14 x B747, 7 x B767, 5 x B777, 71 x B787)

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:01 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

Thanks to your help, I am only missing these. 29 Apr 1999 KL____ AMS-WAW ? May 1999 LO___ WAW-AMS ? May 1999 KL611 AMS-ORD B747SUD ? May 1999 NW____ ORD-DTW ? ? 1999 NW____ DTW-JFK ? ? 1999 NW____ JFK-DTW ? ? 2000 NW__ DTW-AMS ? ? 2000 NW__ AMS-DTW 15 Feb 2001 NW63(?) DTW-MCO B722 (N287US it appear...

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:46 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: BA pilot removed from cockpit.
Replies: 52
Views: 12301

Re: BA pilot removed from cockpit.

"A pilot was taken off a flight from Gatwick Airport after fears were raised he was drunk. The British Airways flight to Mauritius on Thursday was delayed and the pilot replaced, BA said. " http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-42759124 Thank goodness. Classic journalism in action. ...

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:17 am
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

16-May-2001 / DTW-AMS / DC10 / NW40 / N211NW 17-May-2001 / AMS-MAD / 3 Flights either (IB3245 / A320 / EC-FNR) (IB3247 / A320 / EC-HQJ) (IB3249 / B752 / EC-GZY) 22-May-2001 / MAD-AMS / 4 Flights either (KL1698 / B738 / PH-BXD) (KL1700 / B738 / PH-BXG) (KL1702 / B734 / PH-BTF) (KL1704 / B734 / PH-BT...

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by george77300
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:37 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Production/Delivery Thread 2018
Replies: 485
Views: 115652

Re: Boeing 737MAX Production/Delivery Thread 2018

7008 1C328 42958 B-1290 737-8 Xiamen Airlines - Inside the P-8 line https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1756/41646707295_5822f10d06_c.jpg 7008 1C328 42958 B-1290 737-8 Xiamen Airlines by 737 MAX Production , on Flickr Have they converted the line to assemble both Maxs and P-8s? as a lot of P-8 orders ar...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:52 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

https://imgur.com/a/4lfIuaW I will keep digging. Just saw that imgur link is a KLM from 2015. Is that another flight you want me to try and find? Below is a copy of the boarding pass so I have the data to hand when I look tomorrow. I assume you want registration and type for the flight? (KL1365 / o...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:48 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

Wow. Send me your PayPal. : D Then presumably KL 29 Apr 1999 AMS-WAW (Maybe the first flight of the day.) NW 10 May 2000 DTW-MXP DC10 NW 22 May 2000 FCO-DTW DC10 NW 16 May 2001 DTW-AMS DC10 IB 17 May 2001 AMS-MAD A3xx - unknown flight number KL 22 May 2001 MAD-AMS B73x - unknown flight number NW 4 ...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:29 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

Here is what I got then: 22-09-1999 - Only have data for 12/30 random days that month and not the 22nd. However G-BNWH (B763) operated all those flights. Clearly 1 based in MAN for the NYC flight so if I was aa betting man then thats your plane. 15-02-2002 / MAN-JFK / BA 1503 / B763 / G-BNWH 28-Jul...

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by george77300
Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:52 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Help identifying aircraft
Replies: 54
Views: 2680

Re: Help identifying aircraft

Wow. Send me your PayPal. : D Then presumably KL 29 Apr 1999 AMS-WAW (Maybe the first flight of the day.) NW 10 May 2000 DTW-MXP DC10 NW 22 May 2000 FCO-DTW DC10 NW 16 May 2001 DTW-AMS DC10 IB 17 May 2001 AMS-MAD A3xx - unknown flight number KL 22 May 2001 MAD-AMS B73x - unknown flight number NW 4 ...

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