Search found 869 matches

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:19 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: United 737 off runway at IAH
Replies: 101
Views: 22504

Re: United 737 off runway at IAH

The Meme would be "Help, I've Fallen, and I can't get up." Juan Browne gives his analysis: United 737 Max Runway Excursion IAH 8 March 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Woms1sBqUdo Aha, so it sounds like they were coming in hot on a wet runway to make the high speed turnoff at Twy SF s...

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:08 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: LA800 flight SYD-AKL in flight uncontrolled descent
Replies: 212
Views: 46278

Re: LA800 flight SYD-AKL in flight uncontrolled descent

Something about this seems odd to me - say the flight controls just completely switched off, wouldn't the plane enter some sort of phugoid cycle if the engines were still running? The article I read said that someone wasn't in his seat belt and was suddenly on the roof of the plane, and then crashe...

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by estorilm
Fri Feb 02, 2024 4:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing has withdrawn its request for an exemption on the 737-7
Replies: 70
Views: 14188

Re: Boeing has withdrawn its request for an exemption on the 737-7

How do other competing aircraft of the same generation solve this problem? And why are they all doing it a certain way and why it is done differently on the MAX? wrt Ergonomics, reducing possibility of pilot errors etc etc, which is the better approach? Which is better - having Alerts show up on th...

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by estorilm
Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:10 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: 9X246 (Southern Airways Express) lands on highway near IAD
Replies: 79
Views: 13904

Re: 9X246 (Southern Airways Express) lands on highway near IAD

If there's ever a place where we could easily commit to being better with pronouns, I think it's here. It's very easy to say "they" did a great job putting it down, or "he or she." There's enough female pilots out there (including one of the two on this flight - and most likely ...

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by estorilm
Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:37 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: 9X246 (Southern Airways Express) lands on highway near IAD
Replies: 79
Views: 13904

Re: 9X246 (Southern Airways Express) lands on highway near IAD

Drove past the landing spot on the way to work this morning (my normal route actually) and took a crappy photo (lots of traffic) but wow - it chewed up the guardrail pretty good, something I hadn’t noticed in all the news shots. I’m kinda surprised a feathered prop would still do that much damage to...

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by estorilm
Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:32 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: 9X246 (Southern Airways Express) lands on highway near IAD
Replies: 79
Views: 13904

Re: 9X246 (Southern Airways Express) lands on highway near IAD

He landed right by the spotting location for runway 30, there is a set of wires that runs along the road there, but otherwise it's a 3 lane pretty straight where they came down. Probably no traffic due to snow today. Yes it's quite possible to tow it back from there, assuming it fits through the ga...

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by estorilm
Wed Jan 03, 2024 8:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND
Replies: 1206
Views: 199335

Re: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND

I don’t think that image is representive. I think the horizontal stabiliser of the DHC-8 collided with the nose cone of the A350, the nose gear into the DHC-8 fuselage, main gear into the engines, and the A350 engines into the DHC-8 wings. And fuel in its wings into the engine was the ignition sour...

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by estorilm
Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:45 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND
Replies: 1206
Views: 199335

Re: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND

JL516 did get landing clearance at 14:52-14:55 into the below recording, they readback at 15:06. https://archive.liveatc.net/rjtt/RJTT-Twr-TCA-Jan-02-2024-0830Z.mp3 I can't be the only one struggling to understand 3/4 of what is being said on this recording! Are they speaking English and Japanese? ...

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by estorilm
Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:58 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND
Replies: 1206
Views: 199335

Re: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND

Might be a dumb question, but the CG Dash 8 carrying the earthquake 'supplies' wouldn't have included anything that caused or enhanced that big fireball...right? Nope, not compared to tens of thousands of lbs of jet-a. Also, whatever was hit upon impact with the Dash-8 was left behind instantly - t...

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by estorilm
Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:24 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND
Replies: 1206
Views: 199335

Re: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND

No casualties for the JAL part, unbelievable, such a perfect evacuation could only happen in Japan. Air France 358? A340 into Toronto, Canada - 309 evacuated safely after plane went off runway and subsequent fire engulfing entire aircraft. I know it’s impossible to quantify, but Airbus does seem to...

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by estorilm
Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:16 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND
Replies: 1206
Views: 199335

Re: Japan Airlines A350 collides with aircraft at HND

Looks like this is a catastrophic runway incursion incident. The A350 is equipped with a forward facing nosewheel camera right? Zeke and Starlionblue, is this something that is displayed on one of the monitors in the cockpit prior to touchdown and if so, does the PM scan this? No it’s not. Because ...

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by estorilm
Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:25 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: TAP A320 landing incident at CPH on 8 April
Replies: 7
Views: 5502

Re: TAP A320 landing incident at CPH on 8 April

Wow, so at least ONE of the safety systems for the reversers worked! Sounds like when they applied TOGA power, that's when the doors unlocked, however thrust was automatically reduced to idle. 100kts at 900' AGL with the drag of 3 thrust-reverser doors? That's about as close as it gets. So yeah, som...

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by estorilm
Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:28 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: What’s louder B1 or Harley
Replies: 5
Views: 2097

Re: What’s louder B1 or Harley

Agree with the Bone, I remember it to this day as a kid at airshows - it shook the damn ground. Such a cool plane.

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by estorilm
Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:59 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: US Marines develop 'Lightning Carrier"
Replies: 50
Views: 11608

Re: US Marines develop 'Lightning Carrier"

I was having the same internal conflicts about this after seeing the images as well (but lets admit, seeing any carrier with 100% 5th gen aircraft is pretty amazing!) My conclusion is that it's just an extension of capability, and fits in very will with the mission of the USMC in general. They ARE r...

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by estorilm
Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:50 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale
Replies: 60
Views: 13960

Re: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale

Rumours are that this radar can see any stealth aircraft and the RCS is meaningless to it. https://www.hensoldt.net/products/radar-iff-and-datalink/twinvis-passive-radar/ The bit I get is that being passive is an advantage: The system uses existing electromagnetic energy from radio- and TV-broadcas...

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by estorilm
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:19 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale
Replies: 60
Views: 13960

Re: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale

Just to be clear ... A Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen might have an RCS of about 1 meter. An F-15/Su-35 might have an RCS of 5 meters. You see no practical, operational difference? You're being extremely generous with the RCS; a Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen is in the same category as an F-16 or F-18 E/F... easily....

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by estorilm
Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:31 pm
Forum: Technical/Operations
Topic: Location of data plate on Airbus aircraft
Replies: 17
Views: 4668

Re: Location of data plate on Airbus aircraft

I remember the first time I actually looked because I was flying on a brand new Virgin America (RIP) A320 IAD - SFO, was definitely on the L1 door. It was a couple months old. :shock: Ah those were the days - brand new airline, brand new airplane, first time we had seen on-demand ordering per-seat, ...

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:40 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: USAF F-15EX News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 1264
Views: 236891

Re: USAF F-15EX News and Discussion Thread

You need land because control of the land gives you the 20 mile exclusive economic zone around the island. You have a military base on the island to keep other counties from claiming the zone for themselves. You can not claim an exclusive economic zone from underwater reefs. bt Fine, but they're 10...

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:15 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: USAF F-15EX News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 1264
Views: 236891

Re: USAF F-15EX News and Discussion Thread

Again, you said building those islands was "economic" - please tell me what those islands are doing for the Chinese people? It's all military ops. The economics lies beneath the sea floor around those islands in form of hydrocarbon reserves. bt Uhh...? Why do you need extensive military f...

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:00 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: USAF F-15EX News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 1264
Views: 236891

Re: USAF F-15EX News and Discussion Thread

China expansion has been economic versus military, they became an economic power before starting their take over of "empty islands", other than a couple bust ups with India and Russia, actual military combat on any type scale has been minimal. Not sure what to make of that but their prima...

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:56 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Updated: Canada picks F-35 as CF-18 fighter replacement
Replies: 484
Views: 123562

Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Why aren't more countries buying the F35C if it's got more range and payload? Because no one else (really) operates COTOBAR carriers, certainly not like the USN's 10 active Nimitz carriers with nearly 800 aircraft. The stronger landing gear and extra fuel is nice, but as I recall the range wasn't R...

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:28 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale
Replies: 60
Views: 13960

Re: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale

Stealth is not an on/off option. The RCS simply determines the range at which the aircraft can be picked up by a radar, as well as the range at which burn-through occurs if ECM is used. Even the F-35 or F-22 aren't invisible on radar. Less RCS means more options where you can operate safely. For th...

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:07 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale
Replies: 60
Views: 13960

Re: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale

It's NOT A STEALTH AIRCRAFT in any way / shape / form. Its' RCS is likely several times larger than the F-117, which was shot down by a (relatively) primitive SAM system decades ago. Stealth is not an on/off option. The RCS simply determines the range at which the aircraft can be picked up by a rad...

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Updated: Canada picks F-35 as CF-18 fighter replacement
Replies: 484
Views: 123562

Re: Canada - Future Fighter Capability Project

Any chance Canada would get the F35C carrier version with the larger wing?. The CF18 has the arrest hook and strengthened gear. KrisYYZ Looking at that idea from my perspective makes sense, considering they may have to use some pretty rough airstrips as emergency landing sites, should that one engi...

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:40 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: USAF F-15EX News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 1264
Views: 236891

Re: USAF F-15EX News and Discussion Thread

China expansion has been economic versus military, they became an economic power before starting their take over of "empty islands", other than a couple bust ups with India and Russia, actual military combat on any type scale has been minimal. Not sure what to make of that but their prima...

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:35 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Antonov rolls out the first fully domestic An-178 transport
Replies: 10
Views: 4283

Re: Antonov rolls out the first fully domestic An-178 transport

zeke wrote:
Anyone have an idea where this has ended up since the invasion ?

Great question, one would have to assume that the entire program is likely shelved indefinitely.

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by estorilm
Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:33 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale
Replies: 60
Views: 13960

Re: Future of the Typhoon vs Rafale

The French optimized the Rafale for strike, stealth and two men crew early on, in the nineties. They could do so because the French AF was the only customer. Political, industrial, contractual obligations of the 4 partner countries mostly prevented so on the Typhoons. I really don't know why they w...

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:47 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Osprey down in Northern Norway.
Replies: 7
Views: 3281

Re: Osprey down in Northern Norway.

:(. The accident rate of the Osprey remains an issue, whatever the reason was. Obviously, the kind of mission they are used on is a contributing factor, but the risk nevertheless seems higher than with other assets. As with the F-35, a lot can be traced to USMC design requirements trickling down th...

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:33 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: China Eastern 737-800 crashes in Guangxi, southern China
Replies: 1284
Views: 533738

Re: China Eastern 737-800 crashes in Guangxi, southern China

Wouldn’t frozen sensors lead to an AF447 type situation where it would appear as CFIT rather than a steep dive? That must have been horrifying for passengers That was only really possible at night over the ocean - pilots didn't trust their instruments and were in a deep stall for many minutes, whil...

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:27 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: China Eastern 737-800 crashes in Guangxi, southern China
Replies: 1284
Views: 533738

Re: China Eastern 737-800 crashes in Guangxi, southern China

looks like a vertical nosedive....... https://twitter.com/Vlado38793239/status/1505842132162170880?s=20&t=MxJIJKGj4vaRfX8L2LXyhQ That's the one a friend sent me as well. It's just impossible to tell with the crappy framerate, but.... there's only so many objects that travel down vertically like...

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:17 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: China Eastern 737-800 crashes in Guangxi, southern China
Replies: 1284
Views: 533738

Re: China Eastern 737-800 crashes in Guangxi, southern China

Could it possibly be frozen pitot tubes or sensors? The rate of change for the vertical velocity is IMHO to much for that because the autopilot would not intervene that extreme. And even if the Autopilot would go full nose down the pilots should have been able to recover fast by just pulling at the...

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:30 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 1856
Views: 328219

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Russian SU-25 limped back to base after taking severe damage from a MANPADS hit. Will be a long while before this one graces the skies again, if ever. https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1503297270355271681 That's amazing, no clue how there wasn't a subsequent major fire or critical control surface ...

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:22 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 1856
Views: 328219

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Russian SU-25 limped back to base after taking severe damage from a MANPADS hit. Will be a long while before this one graces the skies again, if ever. https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1503297270355271681 That's amazing, no clue how there wasn't a subsequent major fire or critical control surface ...

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:13 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Lockheed Martin F-35 News, Production and Delivery Thread
Replies: 166
Views: 30478

Re: Lockheed Martin F-35 News, Production and Delivery Thread - 2022

Italy procures AIM-9X blk. II for F-35, foregoing IRIS-T integration. Italian F-35s Will Get AIM-9X Block II Air-To-Air Missiles Italy already operates two types of short-range air-to-air missiles: the AIM-9L (for Tornado, AMX and AV-8B+) and the IRIS-T (for the Eurofighter Typhoon). However neithe...

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by estorilm
Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:04 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker
Replies: 403
Views: 73387

Re: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker

Maybe the DoD will wait a little, to see if the 777X achieve its certification? If range and cargo becomes a priority, a 777X tanker would be a competitor of A330 Neo Mrtt. Absolutely not, even if the 777X enters commercial service, that has nothing to do with an entirely new tanker program. Boeing...

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by estorilm
Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:23 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker
Replies: 403
Views: 73387

Re: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker

The LMXT / MRTT can carry standard 463-L NATO military pallets lower deck. The KC-46 cannot, it’s lower deck is smaller & occupied by fuel tanks. Hence the KC46s cargo main deck/ door. This is a key point lost on many. ^^ Use the heavy-density transports for troops and bulk cargo, and load up t...

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by estorilm
Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:18 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Ode to Mriya, AN-225 confirmed destroyed
Replies: 360
Views: 104225

Re: Ode to Mriya, AN-225 confirmed destroyed

Here's a higher resolution version of the satellite image KFLLCFII posted: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMofSSsWUAMYNT8?format=jpg&name=4096x4096 Source: https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1498044269524885507 I know Airliners.net doesn't want/like users posting other similar websites but I...

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by estorilm
Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: FedEx Eyes New Freighter Order per Reuters
Replies: 180
Views: 36724

Re: FedEx Eyes New Freighter Order per Reuters

So why does Boeing not have some readily developed Dreamliner freighter at hand then? Just ready to be made whenever they feel like it? They seem to have wasted so much time. Thinking about it costs almost nothing as the experienced specialists are available anyway. It seems like they really baked ...

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by estorilm
Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:07 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker
Replies: 403
Views: 73387

Re: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker

If LMXT wins this competition, I wonder if the Lockheed Martin / Airbus joint venture will open the doors for further cooperation in the future. Technically they were prime contractors together for the NASA Orion capsule, which was actually a really complicated (and large) project that has been VER...

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by estorilm
Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:51 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: F35 Carrier Crash in South China Sea
Replies: 118
Views: 22253

Re: F35 Carrier Crash in South China Sea

To me it looked like it stalled (that AoA is extreme, even for an F-35 - especially at those speeds) and pancaked onto the deck before sliding off.

The smoke at the end isn't from the plane, it's from the solid rocket booster on the ejection seat which puts out a TON of dense white smoke.

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by estorilm
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:49 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus 340 lands in Antarctica for the first time
Replies: 37
Views: 11209

Re: Airbus 340 lands in Atarctica for the first time

Great video, Hifly seems like a really professional operator.

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by estorilm
Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:37 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Airbus A400M News, Production and Delivery Thread
Replies: 206
Views: 42565

Re: Airbus A400M News, Production and Delivery Thread - 2021

It's again small but an order is an order, good news for the program as Indonesia eventually purchase 2 A400M and sign LOI for 4 more. https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2021-11-indonesia-ministry-of-defence-orders-two-airbus-a400ms The order was expected for a long time now, rumor w...

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by estorilm
Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread
Replies: 155
Views: 54042

Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

The whole XLR thing just blows my mind, it seems like just yesterday that EVERYONE was calling this a "niche" aircraft. [...] The only thing more impressive than the overall A321NEO orders to me is the XLR orders. That reminds me, what happened to the LR? Many people predicted that the LR...

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by estorilm
Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:30 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: RAF F-35 crash
Replies: 21
Views: 6883

Re: RAF F-35 crash

Damn, first B crash (not counting the mid-air). I posted a few months ago about how remarkable the safety record is for the B model given its extreme complexity, guess I jinxed it. Still, considering that more than 700 of these highly-advanced jets have been delivered worldwide with only ONE death (...

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by estorilm
Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:22 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Russia just shot down their own satellite!!!
Replies: 13
Views: 2798

Re: Russia just shot down their own satellite!!!

The US did such tests, too - in 1985 and 2008. I don't know why the US side is complaining... Maybe because it was a low / decaying orbit which burned up in a matter of months? Russia only had one suitable old satellite to shoot down, and its orbit is nearly identical to that of the International S...

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by estorilm
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:46 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread
Replies: 155
Views: 54042

Re: Dubai Air Show 2021 - Airbus Orders and General Discussion Thread

Although perhaps the most interesting 7 A350F's isn't the best endorsement a new project could receive, although I suspect it does confirm that Airbus are actually going to make it :) 55 A321's and another 20 XLR's - I'm losing track, what's the backlog for the XLR now? At this rate I could see it ...

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by estorilm
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:39 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: SLS / Orion - Tests, Launches, & Developments
Replies: 572
Views: 92389

Re: SLS / Orion - Tests, Launches, & Developments

Orion stacked yesterday. https://blogs.nasa.gov/artemis/2021/10/20/lift-underway-to-top-mega-moon-rocket-with-orion-spacecraft/ The fact that they're doing this "a little after midnight, EDT" is rather telling - it sounds like NASA realizes that they're up against it, and that there is a ...

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by estorilm
Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:30 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: What is your favourite military aircraft of the world war 2 era ?
Replies: 21
Views: 2941

Re: What is your favourite military aircraft of the world war 2 era ?

I crew and work maintenance on a 1943 Grumman TBM-3E Avenger which we fly around to air shows / events around the east coast, so naturally I should say it's her... Besides that though, it would have to be the F7F Tigercat, as it's just an insane sexy beast. Besides that, it would probably be the F8F...

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by estorilm
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:02 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: KC-46 now cleared to operationally refuel some aircraft
Replies: 69
Views: 9941

Re: KC-46 now cleared to operationally refuel some aircraft

There’s a good/real reason why the A330 won the bidding 1st time around. Too Much politics making too many wrong decisions . I agree - even then it must have been difficult to select a mostly "foreign" aircraft over a BOEING (!!! omgpolitics/economics) product. Yet they did. This time aro...

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by estorilm
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:41 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker
Replies: 403
Views: 73387

Re: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker

Lockheed, Boeing, and NG all spend about $13 million per year in lobbying (directly; this excludes advertising etc. I think). https://www.opensecrets.org/news/reports/capitalizing-on-conflict Overall, it is split relatively evenly between parties, depending largely on who is in the majority (per th...

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