Transpac787 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 1182 posts, RR: 6 Posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1214 times:
Hey all,
This might be a REALLY dumb question, but are flights from the US to South America dispatched on ETOPS?? Given the relative long duration and distance of flights to GIG, GRU, EZE, SCL, and the planes that operate these routes are almost always ETOPS-certified anyway, are the routes dispatched on ETOPS flight plans??
Thanks in advance.
"Can't we have one meeting that doesn't end with us digging up a corpse??" - Diamond Joe Quimby
BWilliams From United States, joined Sep 2007, 147 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1211 times:
I don't know for certain , but I can take a pretty good guess and say that it's quite unnecessary to fly ETOPS.
It took a fictitious example that would leave the plane over water most of the time (YUL-GRU) and a Great Circle route doesn't take it over any area that would require ETOPS. I'm thinking that the ETOPS zone over Brazil on the map is incorrect, since that's right were BSB is.
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 3489 posts, RR: 28 Reply 2, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1194 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter): This might be a REALLY dumb question, but are flights from the US to South America dispatched on ETOPS??
I really doubt it. You'd have to go a long way off a normal route to end up too far from a suitable diversion airport. There might be spots down in the Andes, maybe...
AAH732UAL From United States, joined Mar 2008, 896 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1010 times:
Prolly not.
There are a lot of subtables along that route of flight. I know the 757/767 pilots at UA carry a big South America chart supplement and that has a lot of the airports.
Like said above..... you would need to check NOTAMS/Route of flight/Airports for anything along this area.
IIRC only times you would go ETOPS over land is in parts of China, Middle East, Africa, and maybe if you go into HF(High Frequency) Areas while over land.
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SlamClick From United States, joined Nov 2003, 9911 posts, RR: 72 Reply 6, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 978 times:
Los Angeles to Santiago Chile, if flown great circle would take you outside the Galapagos. If that was not a suitable alternate then for the area several hundred miles either side of crossing the Equator you would be 800 to 1000 nautical miles from land. One might try radius of action from, say San Salvador and Lima but it looks pretty ETOPS to me.
Non ETOPS route over the same city pair might only add twenty or thirty minutes to the flight, however.
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Mir From United States, joined Jan 2004, 10610 posts, RR: 58 Reply 7, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 940 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 2): There might be spots down in the Andes, maybe...
I doubt it, since the Andes aren't all that wide, and there are always good airports on the Chile side.
Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 4): IIRC only times you would go ETOPS over land is in parts of China, Middle East, Africa, and maybe if you go into HF(High Frequency) Areas while over land.
And Antartica as well.
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5): I can't think of any route they could take that would put them more then 2 hours from land
Doesn't ETOPS start after one hour away from a diversion airport?
-Mir
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Transpac787 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 1182 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 865 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 7): Doesn't ETOPS start after one hour away from a diversion airport?
I believe you can go up to 90 minutes without ETOPS, so long as you still carry necessary overwater equipment in the cabin. Liferafts, vests, etc.
This raises another question. What is the official time limit between the "extended overwater" and full ETOPS?? I know the NW 752's based in NRT are *not* ETOPS. However, they still operate NRT-GUM and NRT-SPN, routes which don't have a single divert in between the two airports, IIRC. So, they must be right at the limits of the 90-minute extended overwater rules in order to get those 757's to operate those routes without ETOPS equipment.
"Can't we have one meeting that doesn't end with us digging up a corpse??" - Diamond Joe Quimby
For example.... UAs 757s that go to Hawaii are 180 min ETOPS, while the rest of the fleet is not. I think any SELCAL 757 is ETOPS for UA, just like most any other airline. I think Iwo Jima is in the chart bundle for the pacific supplement.
I would almost bet those NWA 757s are ETOPS of some sorta and you may no know it. If you think about..... NW has to have some ETOPS or the can't fly those routes b/c almost anything in the pacific is ETOPS, also anything from Hawaii to the West Coast is at least 3 hours flying time on a great day of winds. Japan to Guam..... the RALTs are Guam and like Kaneda on the South tip or anything along the coast depending on the destination. that being said Guam to Kaneda is over 1400NM
DME/DME RNP0.3 NA -Escalators don't break---- they just become stairs!
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 4900 posts, RR: 27 Reply 16, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 778 times:
Quoting BWilliams (Reply 1): I'm thinking that the ETOPS zone over Brazil on the map is incorrect, since that's right were BSB is.
From the Great Circle Mapper website:
"The database of ETOPS alternate airports is incomplete. At rule-times less than 120 minutes, gaps may be visible which are artifacts of the database and not true ETOPS "no-go" areas."
It's clearly erroneous, it's marking some areas "no-go" that are very populated. GRU-SCL is done with twins all the time, 737s and A320s (they could have ETOPS but not for this route). And while there isn't a heck of a lot in the Amazon, there are small cities and airports. Plus your military base here and there.
Also, it marks ~80% of Turkey as no-go. That can't be right.
“When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will.” - Frederic Bastiat
FXRA From United States, joined Jul 1999, 551 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 620 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 8):
I believe you can go up to 90 minutes without ETOPS, so long as you still carry necessary overwater equipment in the cabin. Liferafts, vests, etc.
This raises another question. What is the official time limit between the "extended overwater" and full ETOPS?? I know the NW 752's based in NRT are *not* ETOPS. However, they still operate NRT-GUM and NRT-SPN, routes which don't have a single divert in between the two airports, IIRC. So, they must be right at the limits of the 90-minute extended overwater rules in order to get those 757's to operate those routes without ETOPS equipment.
Airplanes operate in a ETOPS ( or ER-OPS now) when they are 60 minutes from a suitable airport (for a twin engine aircraft) or 180 minutes (for 3 nd 4 engine aircraft). By FAR, "extended overwater" is operating beyond 50 nautical miles from land, there is no time associated with it. If the NRT-GUM flight is within 1 hour of flying time (one engine in still air) then is does not need to meet ETOPS requirements, but does needed the required safety equipment to satisfy the extended overwater requirements (usually life rafts, vests, and other such paraphanalia).
Most routes from North America to South America are usually well within 60 minutes, except in the Western Atlantic area (WATRS) between Bermuda and Puerto Rico/West Indies. Those routes are usually flown under 75 minute ETOPS (which isn't nearly as restrictive as 120/180). Until recent fuel hikes, it was more economical to just stay with in 60 minutes than to go thru the ETOPS certification. Now?? Maybe not.
Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 11): For example.... UAs 757s that go to Hawaii are 180 min ETOPS, while the rest of the fleet is not. I think any SELCAL 757 is ETOPS for UA, just like most any other airline. I think Iwo Jima is in the chart bundle for the pacific supplement.
I would almost bet those NWA 757s are ETOPS of some sorta and you may no know it. If you think about..... NW has to have some ETOPS or the can't fly those routes b/c almost anything in the pacific is ETOPS, also anything from Hawaii to the West Coast is at least 3 hours flying time on a great day of winds. Japan to Guam..... the RALTs are Guam and like Kaneda on the South tip or anything along the coast depending on the destination. that being said Guam to Kaneda is over 1400NM
I would think all UA airplanes are SELCAL equipped, its not equipment usually limited to long range aircraft. SELCAL codes are used by radio operators (ARINC) to contact aircraft for ATC or company communication.
As far as NWA being ETOPS out in the islands, well. I would imagine that they could get away with it being ETOPS'd. There Are several islands out there (Iwo Jima for example) that need only have an "adequate airport", basically a runway thats long enough and hard enough to support the airplane. However, if it becomes and ETOPS airport, it must have weather reporting and Crash Fire Rescue available. Also, wind is not taken into account for diversion distances.
Quoting Mir (Reply 7): I doubt it, since the Andes aren't all that wide, and there are always good airports on the Chile side
No ETOPS required, but they must have Oxygen Escape routes to get below 14000' or so in a certain fame.
AAH732UAL From United States, joined Mar 2008, 896 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 600 times:
Quoting FXRA (Reply 17): I would think all UA airplanes are SELCAL equipped, its not equipment usually limited to long range aircraft. SELCAL codes are used by radio operators (ARINC) to contact aircraft for ATC or company communication.
No ONLY the Transpacific 757s that are 180 MIN ETOPS are the only SELCAL 757s in UA fleet. Heck even the PS birds are not SELCAL equipped! not that they go into HF areas going from JFK to LAX or SFO
Like I said..... I think any ETOPS plane w/ UAL have SELCAL and only like 20 or so 757s are ETOPS for UA.
I will give myself a buffer. There maybe some newer 757s that have the Pegasus FMC that have SELCALs but are not ETOPS. Just my little grey area
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