ReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 517 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 1408 times:
I have a set of B767 and Vickers Viscount maintenance training manuals from AC. I don't want to sell them, but will consider interesting trades. Note, I only want to do this locally (greater YYZ area) , no shipping, no paypal, none of that. I'm into airline memorobilia, IM me and we'll talk.
Regards,
Reid
Avioniker From United States, joined Dec 2001, 1097 posts, RR: 10 Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1383 times:
Be very, very careful of the export restrictions on technical data. It doesn't matter if it's current or not. You technically can't even give it away until you verify the citizenship of the receiver.
A lot of people are spending a lot of money explaining things to the governments on both sides of our northern/southern (depending on your view) border these days.
You should have seen the stink when we cleaned house after we were bought by the Oklahoma boys and threw the stuff in a dumpster - OOF-DA
Take it from one who knows and has to deal with it daily . . .
Â
[Edited 2006-08-10 15:06:00]
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
EasternSon From United States, joined Jun 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1369 times:
Yeah, I have to agree with Avioniker on this one. As somebody who works with CMMs and Aircraft IPLs on a daily basis, I'm reminded by manufacturers (component and aircraft alike) that these are proprietary information and cannot be shared with anyone.
You can get yourself into some hot water for even advertising that you have them if you're not supposed to.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 26086 posts, RR: 51 Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1361 times:
Wouldn't Training Manuals be only restricted to Copying.These are not AMMs.
Do Training Manuals belonging to Someone attending Approved Training courses be restricted.
regds
MEL
EasternSon From United States, joined Jun 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1358 times:
In my dealings, anything that is printed by the manufacturer, regardless of content, is not allowed to be distributed to an unapproved source.
I'm not sure about training manuals, because I have limited no experience with them, but from CMMs, AMMs, SB's, Service Letters and TRs, nothing is to leave our facility without consent from the manufacturer.
I would imagine that Boeing would not want an approved training manual, current or not, distributed to anyone that isn't approved.
See, the thing is, Boeing would probably charge a BOATLOAD of money to someone for that same manual. I can think of a couple of OEMs that charge ridiculous amounts of money, like $15K+ for Temporary Revisions alone (1-2 pages.)
If you're distributing them, you're taking easy money out of their pocket.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
ReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 517 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1320 times:
Quoting ReidYYZ (Thread starter): I have a set of B767 and Vickers Viscount maintenance training manuals from AC. I don't want to sell them, but will consider interesting trades. Note, I only want to do this locally (greater YYZ area) , no shipping, no paypal, none of that. I'm into airline memorobilia, IM me and we'll talk.
Help me with this, where in the above does it say I want to sell them? Where in the above does it say I want to distribute copies? Where does it say I want to export them? Where does it say that I have them but am not supposed to? Where does it say that I will be providing revisions? Where does it say that I have CMMs, AMMs, SB's, Service Letters and TRs available to a good home? Ladies and Gentlemen, it says none of that. I figured some young enthusiasts punk would be interested in them in exchange for a couple safety cards or 'junior captain' wings, but no, the killjoys have come out and rained on this parade. Anyone still interested can swing by my neighbourhood next monday night, they will still be available, but now in the recycling box. (Oh crap, what citizenship does my Refuse Transfer Engineer hold?)
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 26086 posts, RR: 51 Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1295 times:
Quoting EasternSon (Reply 5): I would imagine that Boeing would not want an approved training manual, current or not, distributed to anyone that isn't approved.
Training Manuals only Impart Information for Passing Approved training courses.While working on Aircraft other Documents like AMMs are reffered.So why should there be a restriction on someone reading a copy of the training Manual,as long as there is no copy being made.
EasternSon From United States, joined Jun 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1275 times:
Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 6): Where in the above does it say I want to distribute copies?
Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 6): I figured some young enthusiasts punk would be interested in them in exchange for a couple safety cards or 'junior captain' wings
Right there. You just offered to distribute a training manual to an unapproved source. It doesn't matter if you sell, trade or give intellectual property to another party. It all falls into the "distribution" category.
But, if you still think I'm "raining on your parade" I can call my contacts at Boeing Lit and have them explain to you which laws you'd be breaking.
By the way, despite the fact that you "turn wrenches on the big 'uns," those manuals don't belong to you. They were given to you by your airline. Ask your techlit department if you were allowed to take them home. My guess is no, they should have never left the hangar.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
DarrenBe From United Kingdom (Scotland), joined Jul 2006, 10 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1254 times:
Quite ironically these 'distribution' rules are broken every hour of every day, within the aviation industry, due to the very nature of the business. The manufacturers are just as guilty as the airlines!!!!
If these rules were followed to the letter, the industry would ground to a halt very quickly indeed!
EasternSon From United States, joined Jun 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1249 times:
I don't disagree with you Darren, but this guy should have the common sense to not advertise the fact on a public forum that is frequented by industry professionals.
My original post was to warn this guy that he may get himself in trouble. He's the one who got really pissy for no reason.
These are the kind of people who make a.net less enjoyable.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 26086 posts, RR: 51 Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1239 times:
Need your views on this Senario.
Presuming "A" attended an Approved training course with his Airline concerned & was given Training notes to study for Passing the exams.
On completion if "A" gives those books to "B" who is also an Employee of that Airline but is not Eligible for training until another year,but needed those books to study.Should "A" give the Books to "B" or NOT.
DarrenBe From United Kingdom (Scotland), joined Jul 2006, 10 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1237 times:
I can see your point and there should be an element of common sense when disposing of such material.
Most training materials over the past 15 years or so have been produced and distributed by 3rd Parties. Despite the 'rules', there are literally no controls in place for these materials, so its impossible to 'trace' the ownership of these documents.
Of course 'controlled' documents such as AMMS, CMMs, IPCs, AFMs etc etc are completely different, as you previously pointed out. I've got first hand experience over the draconian measures surrounding these documents.
EasternSon From United States, joined Jun 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1237 times:
Hawk, first offf, I don't want to come across as an expert on intellectual property or even maintenance and training manuals.
But, in the context you're asking, I wouldn't think there would be a problem in passing manuals between two employees of an authorized user (operator.)
Just like I said, I believe the owner/operator of the aircraft is the owner of the manual and can distribute the manuals for use within the company. However, I do not believe they are authorized to make copies of the manuals for distribution to employees. Generally, OEMs and aircraft manufacturers give the manuals to operators with very strict rules. I know that we, as a repair station, are told outright by the agreements we sign with manufacturers that the manuals are not to be copied, distributed to anyone outside our company, nor are they allowed to leave the premises.
So, to reiterate, I can't imagine that Boeing (for example) would be too uptight about "A" giving training materials to "B" if they both work for the same airline.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
Ilikeyyc From United States, joined Dec 2003, 1373 posts, RR: 22 Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1229 times:
I can see the case for the 767 manuals, but the Vickers Viscount? No. That is an airplane that was produced in the '40s and '50s and according to A.net, only 3 were known to be in service in 2004, all in Africa. I think it would be very interesting to read through those old manuals.
Greasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 2634 posts, RR: 24 Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1222 times:
Quoting EasternSon (Reply 11): By the way, despite the fact that you "turn wrenches on the big 'uns," those manuals don't belong to you. They were given to you by your airline. Ask your techlit department if you were allowed to take them home. My guess is no, they should have never left the hangar.
In most organizations up here the manuals do not come from Boeing,,,,,,,Our manuals for B737 and B727 were produced 100% in house and say for training purposes only. Not to be used in place of the approved MM...They are not even copyrighted.
Now I took my B727 From flightcraft......I do not work for Flightcraft.....My work bought me a seat in their class, the Endorsement is in my name and not work...They cannot take it away as it is part of my lisc. that I lend to work.
So i ask you do those manuals beling to me or my employer......My B737 manuals came from a contract teacher who had nothing to do with my employer...
Since the endorsment is mine then the books are mine to do with as I please.
No where do the manual eplain how to do anything with the airplane. They just explain how a system works...They do not even say this is how you run the airplane or turn power on....They do sxplain how the EPR system works....how the Bus protecion cct works.....But it doesn ot say "to start the ening you do this".....
There is a big difference between an operational manual and a maintenance course manual.
GS
In a gunfight even when you do everything right you can still end up dead
Are the FlightCraft manuals from Boeing, or are they training manuals that FlightCraft wrote? Or, are they written by FlightCraft as part of a Boeing approved training course?
Either way, I'd tend to agree with you that those are your manuals, not your employers, and are probably not intellectual property.
The point of my replies has been this:
Quoting ReidYYZ (Thread starter): I have a set of B767 and Vickers Viscount maintenance training manuals from AC
The thread starter says he has manuals from AC. These were given to Air Canada and not intended to be taken from the operator by an employee who is now offering them in trade to the general public.
BTW, whether or not a manual tells you how to operate the aircraft makes no difference. Boeing does not want to share the secrets of system design with competitors. For example: If Boeing's EPR system is different and more efficient than Airbus', do you think that B would want A to know how it works differently, or would they want that kept secret?
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
Greasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 2634 posts, RR: 24 Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1212 times:
Quoting EasternSon (Reply 19): Are the FlightCraft manuals from Boeing, or are they training manuals that FlightCraft wrote? Or, are they written by FlightCraft as part of a Boeing approved training course?
None of the above....The are written by flightcraft as part of a transport canada approved B727 course....
Quoting EasternSon (Reply 19): The thread starter says he has manuals from AC. These were given to Air Canada and not intended to be taken from the operator by an employee who is now offering them in trade to the general public.
No what he is saying is he has manuals given to him from a course Aircanada gave on the B767...It says no where that the manuals were given to Aircanada...
I think the confusion comes from the differences between what goes on in Canada and the USA...
Quoting EasternSon (Reply 19): BTW, whether or not a manual tells you how to operate the aircraft makes no difference. Boeing does not want to share the secrets of system design with competitors
Umm Boeing bought some A340's....I am sure they know how the systems at Airbus works....Same goes for Airbus as they have taken Boeing aircraft in trade...
GS
In a gunfight even when you do everything right you can still end up dead
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