TUIflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 167 posts, RR: 0 Posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1934 times:
'All business-class carrier Eos Airlines has attempted to quell investor nerves over the premium airline sector by announcing it's plans for the future.
In a statement on the company's website, the airline put a positive spin on the current analyst gloom over the all-busines class sector's future. The airline said it had welcomed record passenger or 'guest' figures over October and November as it added 12 additional weekly flights.'
AAmd11 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 881 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1899 times:
PURCHASE, N.Y., October 18, 2007 — In celebration of its second anniversary today, Eos Airlines, whose “Uncrowded” travel experience has captured the loyalty of premium trans-Atlantic travelers, announced it will begin flights between New York’s JFK and Paris, and Newark and London Stansted Airports in 2008. With a recent infusion of $50 million in investment capital, Eos also announced it will secure its seventh and eighth Boeing 757 aircraft in order to introduce as many as four new routes in 2008.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 9597 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1814 times:
I love these airlines - all positive spin with record bookings, planned expansion etc. while money pours out the back.
While Eos might be private and does not need to financially report anything they have acknowledged they are indeed loosing money, but hope to 'breakeven" in 2008.
Same with Silverjet whom really got bent out of shape when an analyst called them on the carpet advising they were 'doomed to fail' Silverjet "doomed To Fail" - Analyst (by LAXintl Jan 15 2008 in Civil Aviation)
These premium airlines might by cute marketing ideas, they are far from solid business models.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
ThirteenRight From United States, joined Jun 2007, 275 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1673 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3): While Eos might be private and does not need to financially report anything they have acknowledged they are indeed loosing money, but hope to 'breakeven" in 2008.
You're absolutely right. The business model must be flawed and Eos must be doomed because they weren't profiting from day 1.
Two years and just now on the verge of profitability as a new airline? Unsightly!
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 9597 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1571 times:
Look at it from a ROI point of view.
MAXjet blew threw $200mil in investor money, Eos is probably based on their equity infusions north of $100mil with Silverjet being about the same.
Based on these airlines very small revenue bases (small number of planes to generate revenue) for them to have enough operating margins to cove cost, plus generate a surplus to even come close to paying back the money invested would be a miracle.
The UK analyst commenting that Silverjet is 'doomed to fail' is much more on the ball then some of his peers which as late as last fall were recommending for folks to invest MAXjet.
Simply put the fundamentals of such stand alone all business class airlines has yet to be proven to work, with multiple previous failures (MGM, McClain, Regent Air, etc..)
While Eos or Silverjet might end up breaking even and treading water eventually such business concepts are marginal at best, and a financial pit hole at worst.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
TUIflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 167 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1479 times:
I think that 2008 is going to a tough year for the industry and some casualties will be taken, I think that another one of the all-business class carriers will go first. Look at L'Avion they started to look promising, now EOS is moving on to their turf as well as direct competition from BA's OpenSkies and further competition from DL and AF.
Lightsaber From United States, joined Jan 2005, 3926 posts, RR: 71 Reply 7, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1438 times:
Quoting TUIflyer (Thread starter): What is the future for EOS, is it going down the same road as MaxJet?
Sadly, I have to wonder too. But I think its a case of too many new premium airlines. I like the concept, but not enough for Maxjet, Silverjet, EOS, and L'Avion. At most the market is ready for two.
Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 1): So maybe: JFK-CDG, EWR-STN, EWR-CDG. Not sure about the last one.
They all sound reasonable. But for aircraft utilization, they should hit a few domestic premium markets. e.g., SFO-JFK onward to Europe.
Personally, I think its unfair that L'Avion can operate out of ORY and not EOS.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3): These premium airlines might by cute marketing ideas, they are far from solid business models.
I think the issue is there are too many. Add BA's openskies and they're in real trouble. But the concept has merit. I'm all for new innovations. I just think ACJ's would have been a better business plan...
EOS has been smart in one area. They picked ETOPS 757's. Maxjet and Silverjet might be too ambitious with the 762's. However, in Silverjet's case, the LTN-DXB route appears to be a savior (and out of 752 range).
EOS and Silverjet look to have the best chance of surviving. Let's see how it goes!
ThirteenRight From United States, joined Jun 2007, 275 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1397 times:
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 7): EOS has been smart in one area. They picked ETOPS 757's. Maxjet and Silverjet might be too ambitious with the 762's. However, in Silverjet's case, the LTN-DXB route appears to be a savior (and out of 752 range).
Great Circle Mapper shows JFK-STN at 3471mi and LTN-DXB at 3421mi, so is it out of the 757s range?
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 7): EOS and Silverjet look to have the best chance of surviving. Let's see how it goes!
I think you're right, but the 767 is not right for an all business class model.
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 3584 posts, RR: 43 Reply 9, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1330 times:
How many people have actually DONE EOS research?
I have...
I have been keeping track of the EOS loads and bookings and the fares they are being booked at.
By far last week EOS didnt have one flight with 38 booked or less. In Each way. Now of course, the next is, it can go out FULL but be unprofitable.
Very correct, however, friend of mine and I did the research and we calculated the pay for the entire crew, versus the operating cost of the 757, booking at the LOWEST fare one way EOS allows, which is 1,235 dollars one way, means EOS can still leave out at 28 seats with the LOWEST fare, out of 48 and be flight profitable. We all know EOS is NOT going to allow 28 seats to all be sold at that price.
EOS made a VERY wise choice in selecting the 757 for the lower operating cost.
I have been comparing the schedule versus the actual availability of the flights, and quite often I cannot even BOOK a lot of the flights!! Even trying at the walk up fare of 4,110 one way. This is very positive to see and hear.
A lot of airlines usually forecast their losses at two years correct? Silver, and Max jet and L'Avion are all 2 yrs or under. Eos has gone past 2 yrs and in their 3rd year. It is usually if an airline cannot make their operating system work by the 2nd year, then it is doomed to fail. We saw this with max jet. Not sure what Silver is at or L Avion.
EOS offers a lot more too, they may be an all business system but their seats are FIRST CLASS. As is service and all, a reward program, service for Limo and Helicopter at the end of each their flights so far.
It would not be wise to call EOS another max jet, the airlines truly are two totally different business plans though shooting for similair passengers.
I can't begin to mention almost every airline that did NOT report profit for the first two or even three years, a big one being the biggest of them all, Southwest Airlines. So don't be so quick to shoot EOS down just yet. Don't some of you know, one of the exec with EOS previously worked for Southwest Airlines for many years!
Alex
[Edited 2008-01-27 13:42:27]
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
Lightsaber From United States, joined Jan 2005, 3926 posts, RR: 71 Reply 11, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1161 times:
Quoting ThirteenRight (Reply 8): Great Circle Mapper shows JFK-STN at 3471mi and LTN-DXB at 3421mi, so is it out of the 757s range?
Mea culpa, LTN-DXB is in range of the 752.
Oops... But last I heard, Silverjet was growing purely by 762's anyway. Now if Silverjet would also serve India! BOM and DEL would be easy and BLR wouldn't be too difficult either.
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9): By far last week EOS didnt have one flight with 38 booked or less.
Thank you for the information
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9): EOS made a VERY wise choice in selecting the 757 for the lower operating cost.
I 100% agree. Of all of them, there is a reason I believe EOS will be a survivor. But I doubt the only survivor.
And last I read, EOS has a breakeven operating quarter (but lost money on overhead). So at this point they simply require more flights to pay for HQ staffing and such.
But I wonder, as oil prices climb, if a ACJ wouldn't have had even better economics for EOS?
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9): It would not be wise to call EOS another max jet, the airlines truly are two totally different business plans though shooting for similair passengers.
I concur. Of all things, ensuring enough frequency JFK-STN was a bright move on EOS's part as well as sticking to the low per flight costs of the 752. As they ad new routes, they have to ensure the continue to offer the frequency that premium passengers demand.
I have had some fun pricing out fares on EOS's website. The range the fares bounced was small $1265 to $1675 per leg (I have seen cheaper earlier, but not now). But what really struck me is that on some days there were one flight available and on others three. Is this due to their promise of 'high availability' for Club 48 members? or are they selling out? Either way, it does make it likely that they're at least breaking even on the discount pre-sales.
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9): As is service and all, a reward program, service for Limo and Helicopter at the end of each their flights so far.
Atrude777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 3584 posts, RR: 43 Reply 12, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1139 times:
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11): And last I read, EOS has a breakeven operating quarter (but lost money on overhead). So at this point they simply require more flights to pay for HQ staffing and such.
That would be correct.
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11): But I wonder, as oil prices climb, if a ACJ wouldn't have had even better economics for EOS?
In the Airways magazine I read a year ago., Feb of 07 issue, they stated they'd explore putting winglets on their 757's. It is my guess the cost for EOS simply is the most beneficial in putting a 757 on the routes. Plus 48 F/C Suites so to speak in that space wouldn't fit on an ACJ plane Boeing 738 or A319.
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11): I have had some fun pricing out fares on EOS's website. The range the fares bounced was small $1265 to $1675 per leg (I have seen cheaper earlier, but not now). But what really struck me is that on some days there were one flight available and on others three. Is this due to their promise of 'high availability' for Club 48 members? or are they selling out?
To ensure they are selling out, make sure your trying to book in the walk up fare of 4,110. If you don't see a flight open for a scheduled time, it is safe to assume it is sold out.
The 9:00am is sold out MANY times out of JFK, as well as often the 11:30pm Departure or 11:00pm, I cannot recall at the moment. I also have been doing some EOS pricing and only saw the 1,265 one way out of JFK in April, otherwise nothing lower then 1,455 or so. It varies slightly based on seat.
It says Su/Mo/Thu/Sa has a 9:00am departure JFK-STN, yet it seems to routinely sell out all the time, as it is rarely available on a walk up notice. The 11:05pm JFK-STN also seems to sell out a lot.
As I mentioned, EOS can fly the 757 out at 28 seats full with the lowest fare booked and STILL make a profit for the flight, which is pretty damn good, as we know EOS wouldnt sell 28 seats at that fare bucket. Also EOS rewards points for their tickets based on the I fare or higher. So people booking the low fares wont get their points, so it would sorta make folks want to book a higher fare to ensure they are rewarded, and it seems to work!
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
Lightsaber From United States, joined Jan 2005, 3926 posts, RR: 71 Reply 13, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1125 times:
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 12): they stated they'd explore putting winglets on their 757's.
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 12): The 9:00am is sold out MANY times out of JFK, as well as often the 11:30pm Departure or 11:00pm, I cannot recall at the moment.
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 12): So people booking the low fares wont get their points, so it would sorta make folks want to book a higher fare to ensure they are rewarded, and it seems to work!
Depends who is paying for those points!
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 12):
To ensure they are selling out, make sure your trying to book in the walk up fare of 4,110.
Ok, I did that, the 9:00am was almost always sold out! The 6:45 pm and 8:30pm JFK departures seem to be the two flights that are tough to fill. So if frequency were to be cut to open a flight to CDG... guess I'd pick the 6:45pm flight to be cut.
But as I go through 2008, the 9:00am wasn't even available on the days I checked in October and November?!?
So are they being held for Club 48? Is there a filter?
Good point! I have noticed on EOS's website, the "guests" as they like to call them, and not Passengers or Customers (isn't that a nice word?! ) are actually celebrities or high business folks who pay their own way. I don't see to amny corporate folks booking EOS, HOWEVER, EOS I am sure gets a lot of business for having their own almost charter like operations.
Also EOS does charter flights on the side which helps their money situation as well.
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 13): Ok, I did that, the 9:00am was almost always sold out! The 6:45 pm and 8:30pm JFK departures seem to be the two flights that are tough to fill. Sad So if frequency were to be cut to open a flight to CDG... guess I'd pick the 6:45pm flight to be cut. Wink
So that is good to hear the 9:00am seems the most filled up. However 6:45pm and 8:30pm are equally needed and it is an every day route which shows that EOS must be having some success with it to make it nearly an every day flight with exception to the 6:45pm departure on Sunday.
I did sorta screw up thinking all flights were dailies and thought more flights were oversold before, but as mentioned I managed to catch it and pulled up the schedule versus what I could book and as you saw the 9:00am is the most popular it seems, more NOT available over some available.
I DON'T think frequencies will be cut as EOS is actually adding two more planes which would do the EWR-CDG route that has been announced before.
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 13): But as I go through 2008, the 9:00am wasn't even available on the days I checked in October and November?!?
So are they being held for Club 48? Is there a filter?
I saw that also, and it couold be two reasons being the schedule does not go out that far, or it could be blocked for Club 48. But I don't have access to seat maps so I don't know
Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 14): Any chance of Eos buying a B737-700ER and taking it to cities that couldn't provide sufficent loads with a 757? Such as JFK-EDI, JFK-AMS, EWR-AMS.
I considered it but again, EOS needs to have about 48 suites on board, at their size, it won't fit on a 737ER. The 757 does it just fine for them.
Also Super80 are they BUSINESS ONLY ROUTES? EOS is going after the business passengers who are willing to pay high fares. JFK-AMS seems to be low yielding with vacationers with the occasional business folks on board.
Alex
[Edited 2008-01-27 18:42:34]
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
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From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 167 posts, 
From United States, joined Oct 2007, 1016 posts, 
But the concept has merit. I'm all for new innovations. I just think ACJ's would have been a better business plan... 
Now if Silverjet would also serve India! BOM and DEL would be easy and BLR wouldn't be too difficult either. 
I 100% agree. Of all of them, there is a reason I believe EOS will be a survivor. But I doubt the only survivor. 
Either way, it does make it likely that they're at least breaking even on the discount pre-sales. 